• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

  • The rule regarding AI content has been updated. The rule now rules as follows:

    Be sure to credit AI when copying and pasting AI sources. Link to the site of the AI search, just like linking to an article.

Communion question

Status
Not open for further replies.

Theresa

With Reason
Nov 27, 2002
7,866
198
48
✟39,289.00
Faith
Catholic
Good question. I think it's because the properties of these things remain but only the substance is changed. The flour is still present as flour with the smell, touch, and taste of flour (albeit, as bread) and whatever else used to make the bread is still present. But the substance of all these things combined as unleavened bread is changed, hence transubstantiation.

"In other words, whatever the senses perceive-even with the aid of those instruments men are forever inventing to increase the reach of the senses- is always of this same sort, a quality, a property, an attribute; no sense perceives the something which has all these qualities, which is the thing itself. This something is what the philosophers call substance; the rest are accidents which it possesses. Our senses perceive accidents; only the mind knows the substance. This is true of bread, it is true of every created thing. Left to itself, the mind assumes that the substance is that which, in all its past experience, has been found to have that particular group of accidents. But in these two instances, the bread and wine of the Eucharist, the mind is not left to itself. By the revelation of Christ it knows that the substance has been changed, in the one case into the substance of his body, in the other into the substance of his blood.

The senses can no more perceive the new substance resulting from the consecration than they could have perceived the substance there before. We cannot repeat too often that senses can perceive only accidents, and consecration changes only the substance. The accidents remain in their totality-for example, that which was wine and is now Christ's blood still has the smell of wine, the intoxicating power of wine. One is occasionally startled to find some scientist claiming to have put all the resources of his laboratory into testing the consecrated bread; he announces triumphantly that there is no change whatever, no difference between this and any other bread. We could have told him that, without the aid of any instrument. For all that instruments can do is to make contact with the accidents, and it is part of the doctrine of transubstantiation that the accidents undergo no change whatever. If our scientist had announced that he had found a change, that would be really startling and upsetting. "





"..The poem is called "A Roman Miracle", and in forty lines it tells the story of a Protestant woman who married a Catholic. One day her husband brought his priest into dinner in order to effect her conversion. After the priest gave his councel, they all agree to meet again, and he promised to confect the sacrament in her presence if she would prepare the bread. He returned, did as he said, and prepared to eat. Ath the last moment she warned him that "Half an ounce of arsenic was mixed right in the batter, / But since you have its nature changed, it cannot really matter." The priest, of course, ran away, eating nothing, and the contrite husband turned to his wife saying: "To gulp such mummery and tripe, I 'm not for sure, quite able; / I'll go with you and we'll renounce this Roman Catholic fable."

....On Catholic principles, the priest was quite right, of course, to refuse to eat, for the simple reason that only the bread, not the poison, could be transubstantiated. Anything mixed with the bread would have remained unaltered (assuming the mixture would ot have been unconfectable matter in the first place), and the bread would have retained the appearance and properties of bread. The arsenic would have remained poison. Transubstantiation would not have made the arsenic disappear....."

Catholocism and Fundamentalism - Karl Keating pg252-253
 
Upvote 0

nyj

Goodbye, my puppy
Feb 5, 2002
20,976
1,304
USA
Visit site
✟54,248.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Today at 10:49 AM Chris†opher Paul said this in Post #22

Interesting. So I am not quite understanding what "substance" truly means. This is kind of confusing. :scratch:

So its not the physical properties that are changed? Just something else, which we can't perceive physically?

Substance is a philosophical term. It is the property which makes a thing, that particular thing. Take for instance, a rose. A rose that is alive may be red in color, have a beautiful smell, and the petals have a soft texture. The color, smell and feel are all accidental properties. These accidentals can be similiar between similar flowers... for instance a red carnation also is red, smells beautiful and the petals are soft to the touch. However, you wouldn't call a carnation, a rose, would you?

Now, when the rose dies, the red turns to black, the smell dissipates and the texture goes from smooth to brittle. Yet, it is still a rose right? It's dead, but it's still a rose. The accidental properties have changed, but it's still the same thing it was before, except at first it was live, now it's not.

The property which makes the rose, a rose, is it's substance.

Did that help or just confuse you more?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.