Communion Bread - Question

[RomansFiveEight]

The churches around us can trickle in. While both of the churches I serve would probably not like the idea of having alcohol at a church function; few of them probably have any issue with alcohol and none of them, that I know of, would think it to be condemning you to hell; especially for 'inhaling the fumes'. Sheesh, what a legalistic view of God.

While I don't drink and I have my own reasons for that (none of which are because I think it's some sort of egregious sin), I have been with quite a few parishioners while they have. Heck, I love bars (great food at many of them!) and often take Parishioners. Like most small towns, noon on a Sunday is when the restaurants are all PACKED to the gills. But since this is fundie country; many of my Parishioners and I find solace at the tavern next door to the church that has great wings, a fantastic reuben sandwich; and the tea isn't bad either! But, I suppose we might inhale some of those evil booze fumes or something.

It might have made that Pastor feel good; but I very seriously doubt holding your breath and throwing tracts onto tables did anyone any good. I frequent that very same Tavern (and other places as well) for lunch often. Mostly because it's right next door. And I've actually had someone pull up a chair next to me and want to talk. Not about any huge serious thing; it wasn't a "come to Jesus" talk or anything (and to some fundies, it doesn't matter unless you "score some saves" by getting them to pray a prayer from an index card), but he knew I was a Pastor because he had been to some of our community meals, and he wanted to talk to someone something going on in his life. We chatted for a little bit, and he's been in church almost every Sunday since (he wasn't previously affiliated with any Church).

Jesus flipped over the tables at the temple, called the religious leaders snakes and hypocrites and ridiculed the wealthy and powerful. When someone tells me they want to go raise heck at a bar or some 'event' they disapprove of like "Jesus flipping the tables", I remind them that it was the then equivalent of the church fellowship hall that he was attacking, not the gay pride parade (or whatever it is that they think they need to go disrupt to show Jesus how much they love him). But the sinners, he went where they were. He spent an evening alone with the prostitute (talk about Safe Sanctuaries / Boundaries!), he ate with the sinners (and remember, that's what the religious leaders were protesting!), and at the one drunken soiree described in detail in the New Testament, JESUS BROUGHT THE BOOZE. (Not advocating we all get drunk, by the way. I think getting drunk is harmful and I think alcohol can be very harmful; but I also think that it can be responsibly and judiciously consumed).

The UMC's official position does make a lot of sense. Encouraging abstinence is akin to encouraging healthy eating and exercise. It's not that the ones who are "most Christian" will abstain; but that society in general is better off when we take it down a notch. My community, for example, is riddled with alcoholism and alcohol abuse. Such as, for example, drunk driving deaths. Our local high school has had dozens of alcohol related deaths in recent years, and as a Pastor in this community I very firmly believe that we have a responsibility to encourage young people to make responsible choices. And to understand the incredible dangers that come with excessive alcohol consumption and consuming alcohol whilst driving. Screaming that hell is coming for them isn't effective. Or defensible with scripture. But doing things like offering alternative things to do after things like Prom and Graduation (we have "Project Graduation" every year which is essentially a post-graduation lock in). I've even heard of churches in certain communities having "no questions asked" pick-up phone line. Get into trouble at a party, drink to much, and someone from the church will take you home, no questions asked. What an incredible way to protect young people, though there are many who oppose programs like that; claiming that it just 'encourages' bad behavior.

 

[circuitrider]

One of the problems with churches taken a over zealous attitude against alcohol is that they can find little scriptural support for such a view.

 

[Dave-W]

As long as one does not drink to excess I see no problem with a glass or two of wine now and then. But I will not drink in front of some of my family members due to their inability to stop after one or two. It is easier to not provide the temptation for them and not drink than dealing with some of them once they get started.

Wow. That sounds absolutely biblical. What a Concept!

 

[Dave-W]

One of the problems with churches taken a over zealous attitude against alcohol is that they can find little scriptural support for such a view.

True. But when you are raised with that mentality, you end up seeing support everywhere. Even when it is not really there.

In HS, my best friend (catholic) and I did a bible study and looked at every scripture we could find dealing with alcohol. After growing up with the rabid anti-alcohol mentality and finding other real belivers from different faith traditions that DID drink alcohol drove me to find out what the bible REALLY said. Our conclusion was that ONLY ONE VERSE SCRIPTURE commanded us to not be drunk:

Ephesians 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,

Sure there are plenty saying that drunkenness is not good, and some that even put it into the category with some other serious sins. But that is not a command. And none of the verses we found prohibited drinking altogether except for those taking Nazirite vows. (does anyone do that any more?) That vow also prohibits fresh grapes, raisins, grape juice and stuffed grape leaves. So apparently it was not about the alcohol content.

So we both bought cans of beer (BIG cans) on our 18th birthdays when it became legal in our state to do so. AFAIK, those cans of beer are still unopened in his refrig and we both just turned 60.

 

[circuitrider]

Yes, Dave you are right to point out that the Bible doesn't support drunkedness. But how that becomes "don't drink at all" I don't know.

Also, from Methodist perspective, John Wesley in his day was opposed to the consumption of gin because it was being made cheaply and poor people were spending all their money and time being drunk on gin.

Some Methodists took that as a sign, later, that Wesley was against the consumption of all alcohol. He was not. John drank beer and wine. And in fact he made his own beer. In his book "Primitive Physic" I have been told there is a beer recipe.

 

[Dave-W]

Yes, Dave you are right to point out that the Bible doesn't support drunkedness. But how that becomes "don't drink at all" I don't know.

I suspect that was more of a political view than a doctrinal one. Temperance was a strong movement about the same time the Holiness groups got going.

Some Methodists took that as a sign, later, that Wesley was against the consumption of all alcohol. He was not. John drank beer and wine.

And I am rather partial to a certain brand of Cherry wine made by Tabor Hill in Michigan. I have to exercise restraint on that one...... one glass limit PERIOD.

 

[circuitrider]

I suspect that was more of a political view than a doctrinal one. Temperance was a strong movement about the same time the Holiness groups got going.

For a lot of churches it became doctrinal. At one time a Methodist minister promised in their ordination vows not to consume alcohol. That was dropped I believe in the 1970s. But it used to be there.

 

[Dave-W]

Yeah I know it became doctrinal, but I don't think it started out that way. I did not make that clear in what I said.
One wacky thing about US christianity is that politics and doctrine seem to get mixed up at times.

 

[Albion]

One wacky thing about US christianity is that politics and doctrine seem to get mixed up at times.

Exactly like they do in almost every other country.

 

[Liberasit]

An issue has come up in our church recently. For communion, our pastor normally has pita bread; one member of our church has complained and said this wasn't biblical. Communion must have unleavened bread only.

And, of course, I've had my own problems with communion - so this isn't helping.

Any thoughts? Suggestions?

Anglican here - we use white sliced supermarket bread.

 

[circuitrider]

Anglican here - we use white sliced supermarket bread.

Really?

 

[circuitrider]

Yeah I know it became doctrinal, but I don't think it started out that way. I did not make that clear in what I said.
One wacky thing about US christianity is that politics and doctrine seem to get mixed up at times.

There is always an overlap between a person's doctrine and their politics. I vote the way I vote because of what I believe about a lot of things, including faith.

 

[Qyöt27]

Really?

Depending on what's meant by 'sliced', that's what we've almost always had. I referred to it as 'cubed' in other places, but that's what you get when you take pre-sliced bread and cut equal pieces out of it in a grid.


RE: all the Temperance talk, there's some egregiously non-scientific fearmongering going on there too. According to their arguments, apparently alcohol is just as addictive and potent as heroin and one sip will cause you to become fall-down drunk. And of course this is tied into people not really understanding genetics because they might admit that not everyone is affected that way, but those with the 'gene' (or substitute 'family history' if they're less buzzword-y about it) for alcohol addiction will invariably have that reaction (even if they've never had alcohol before). Also expect a thick helping of support of 'gateway drug' thinking despite that being an inherently-flawed premise. The whole thing is fueled on chucking the principle of 'correlation does not equal causation' out the window. And the coup de grace, if you try to refute this with actual science, they'll claim that doctors can't make up their minds and continue believing whatever they want to believe. Or accuse you of being a know-it-all and use that to ignore everything. Anti-intellectualism is an ugly, ugly beast.

So one sip will make you drunk and a hopeless alcoholic, drunkenness is considered a sin, so therefore there is no way to drink without being drunk and so alcohol itself has to be a sin. Or so their logic would seem to go.

 

[Dave-W]

My mom believed that about herself. One sip of wine would cause her to become a hopless alcoholic.

 

[Liberasit]

My mom believed that about herself. One sip of wine would cause her to become a hopless alcoholic.

Best stick to beer then :lol:

 

[circuitrider]

So one sip will make you drunk and a hopeless alcoholic, drunkenness is considered a sin, so therefore there is no way to drink without being drunk and so alcohol itself has to be a sin. Or so their logic would seem to go.

I have relatives who believe that. And people who think like this are almost never around people who drink because they refuse to be around alcohol. So they have no idea how regular every day people use alcohol in casual and social situations.

They fixate on some person who they know is an alcoholic who cannot handle alcohol and extrapolate that out to everyone else. But most people who drink have an occasional drink are not alcoholics and don't generally abuse it over much.

 

[Qyöt27]

I have relatives who believe that. And people who think like this are almost never around people who drink because they refuse to be around alcohol. So they have no idea how regular every day people use alcohol in casual and social situations.

They fixate on some person who they know is an alcoholic who cannot handle alcohol and extrapolate that out to everyone else. But most people who drink have an occasional drink are not alcoholics and don't generally abuse it over much.

This is true. I might have described it in a bit of a hyperbolic fashion, but I've heard my grandmother use those arguments before. In her case, her father-in-law was a bad alcoholic.

I don't remember our parents drinking at all while we were growing up. It was only after I turned 21 that they started doing so more regularly. I drink much less at one time and much less frequently than my parents do, mostly because I don't like beer or wine. I prefer whiskey and absinthe.

 

[KimT]

In my Methodist church, we have communion every Sunday. We use grape juice. Some days, our pastor has two huge loaves of bread that he breaks in two. Other times, we have small cracker-like pieces already broken up. Yeast is in both, I believe.

I know there are some people with celiac disease who cannot eat anything with gluten. In that case, our pastor would let them bring their own bread, make without gluten.