Common Grace

[Iosias]

so Israel are elect and reprobate !

That is what I understand your position to be.

"The mercy of God is offered equally to those who believe and to those who believe not, so that those who are not Divinely taught within are rendered inexcusable" (John Calvin—1552—"The Eternal Predestination of God" p. 95).

"That the Gospel is, in its nature, able to save all I by no means deny. But the great question lies here: Did the Lord by His eternal counsel ordain salvation for all men? It is quite manifest that all men, without difference or distinction, are outwardly called or invited to repentance and faith. It is equally evident that the same Mediator is set forth before all, as He who alone can reconcile them to the Father. But it is as fully well known that none of these things can be understood or perceived but by faith, in fulfilment of the apostle Paul's declaration that " the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; " then what can it be to others but the " savour of death unto death? " as the same apostle elsewhere powerfully expresses himself." (John Calvin—1552—"The Eternal Predestination of God" p. 95)

"From this state of things flows the conclusion (and this we hold fast) that the Gospel, which is, in its essential nature, " a savour of life unto life," and ought to be so to all that hear it, becomes " a savour of death unto death in them that perish," who thus remain in their darkness and unbelief because " the arm of the Lord " is not revealed to them." (John Calvin—1552—"The Eternal Predestination of God" p. 97)

"God commands the ears of His people Israel to be stricken by, and filled with, the voice of His prophet. For what end? That their hearts might be touched? Nay; but that they might be hardened ! That those who hear might repent? Nay; but that, being already lost, they might doubly perish !...Hence, it is by no means absurd that the doctrine of the truth should, as commanded of God, be spread abroad; though He knows that, in multitudes, it will be without its saving effects." John Calvin—1552—"The Eternal Predestination of God" p. 173


I notice also that you have not answered:

Psa 92:7 "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Psa 73:17-20 "Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end. Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction. How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors. As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image."

 

[Erinwilcox]

But is God completely unkind to every reprobate right now? Does He not give them some good things? He lets them live and waters their flowers with rain just like He does mine. . .

 

[billwald]

What changes would we expect to see in this life (world) if God stopped doing all those good things for the reprobate?

 

[cygnusx1]

But is God completely unkind to every reprobate right now? Does He not give them some good things? He lets them live and waters their flowers with rain just like He does mine. . .

yes sister , God gives reprobates millions of good things , these are meant as an indicator that God is good , that God can be trusted , that God is love , that these unmerited gifts are in fact meant to lead sinners to repentance and salvation ..... Romans 2.


Rom 2:4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Some Calvinists are misguided into thinking that these good gifts are nothing but "gifts" of animosity , given for no other reason than to increase the pain of the reprobate in judgement ....... these H.Calvinists confuse certain causes , they think God meant these good gifts for harm!!
They think the goodeness of God leadeth reprobates not to repentance but to damnation.

Reminds me of this question ......



Rom 7:13¶Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.


seeing as the Law came to increase the trespass , and expose man's sin , shall we say the Law is the cause of our sin and damnation .....?

Rom 7:12Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

What is common grace?

If you are seriously inquiring in the matter, I'd suggest to widen sources to more than just the PRC and/or Hoeksema. They define the terms differently than most, and do a little historical revisionism along the way as well.

One of the classic Biblical passages is:

Matthew 5:44-48 44 But I say to you, love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be like your Father in heaven, since he causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Even the tax collectors do the same, don't they? 47 And if you only greet your brothers, what more do you do? Even the Gentiles do the same, don't they? 48 So then, be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Here and in Luke 6:35-36 Jesus commands believers to love their enemies and expect nothing in return. Verse 48 points out that believers are to imitate God. While God's wrath does rest on unbelievers and they are regarded as His enemies, God also provides all mankind with a general care and love, without expecting anything in return.

This general care and love provided by God is common grace.


LDG

 

[Iosias]

But is God completely unkind to every reprobate right now? Does He not give them some good things? He lets them live and waters their flowers with rain just like He does mine. . .

Indeed he does give them good things but rather we ought focus upon what is God's intent in doing so. His intent in giving good things to them is to lead to their greater damnation. Similarly God sent prophets to his people to harden Israel (Isaiah 6:9, 10).

Turretin stated well that the Sun hardens the clay and melts the wax. Seeing that God's desire is then to harden the reprobate it can hardly be called grace.

 

[Iosias]

If you are seriously inquiring in the matter, I'd suggest to widen sources to more than just the PRC and/or Hoeksema. They define the terms differently than most, and do a little historical revisionism along the way as well.

One of the classic Biblical passages is:

Matthew 5:44-48 44 But I say to you, love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be like your Father in heaven, since he causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Even the tax collectors do the same, don't they? 47 And if you only greet your brothers, what more do you do? Even the Gentiles do the same, don't they? 48 So then, be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Here and in Luke 6:35-36 Jesus commands believers to love their enemies and expect nothing in return. Verse 48 points out that believers are to imitate God. While God's wrath does rest on unbelievers and they are regarded as His enemies, God also provides all mankind with a general care and love, without expecting anything in return.

This general care and love provided by God is common grace.


LDG

The one text of Scripture that Mouw adduces in support of common grace is Luke 6:35. This is a text that has played a prominent role in the controversy over common grace in Reformed circles. Defenders of common grace have always appealed to it as one of the clearest, most powerful proofs of a favor of God to the reprobate wicked. The text reads: "But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." The text is part of the passage beginning with verse 27 in which Jesus calls His disciples to love their enemies.

Engelsma deals with length the GC view of Luke 6 here: http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_89.html#Editorial3

 

[cygnusx1]

Indeed he does give them good things but rather we ought focus upon what is God's intent in doing so. His intent in giving good things to them is to lead to their greater damnation. Similarly God sent prophets to his people to harden Israel (Isaiah 6:9, 10).

Turretin stated well that the Sun hardens the clay and melts the wax. Seeing that God's desire is then to harden the reprobate it can hardly be called grace.

it is equally in question that gifts that are said to be good can really be GOOD , if the intent is merely to harden !

One may easily see that gifts that are good can hardly be called good if the intent is only to harden the reprobate anymore than your aledged view that grace can hardly be called grace if God desired simply to harden reprobates ....... the two stand or fall together .

 

[Iosias]

it is equally in question that gifts that are said to be good can really be GOOD , if the intent is merely to harden !

One may easily see that gifts that are good can hardly be called good if the intent is only to harden the reprobate anymore than your aledged view that grace can hardly be called grace if God desired simply to harden reprobates ....... the two stand or fall together .

Not at all. The reason why something is given does not change what is given. So if I were to give you a good book the reason why I give it to you does not stop the book from being good. However I am only gracious to you, and the book can only be said to be grace, if it were given to you by me out of a gracious reason.

Bread and wine remain bread and wine regardless who eat and drink it. To the elect it is grace but to the reprobate it is a cause of greater damnation.

 

[billwald]

" It is quite manifest that all men, without difference or distinction, are outwardly called or invited to repentance and faith. "

Not evident to me that that the Indian People in North America prior to 1000 AD were called or invited to repentence and faith unless you omit a tacic reference to Jesus. If Repentance of sins and belief in one primary God - The Great Spirit, for example - is what gets one saved then I agree.

 

[billwald]

Make that "tacit reference"

 

[cygnusx1]

Not at all. The reason why something is given does not change what is given. So if I were to give you a good book the reason why I give it to you does not stop the book from being good. However I am only gracious to you, and the book can only be said to be grace, if it were given to you by me out of a gracious reason.

Bread and wine remain bread and wine regardless who eat and drink it. To the elect it is grace but to the reprobate it is a cause of greater damnation.

this is nothing but a merry dance , if a good gift is given with the express intention of malice the gift is hardly good in it's intention or in it's effect , it is rather a "poison chalice"....... also , the standard of whether something is TRULY good has everything to do with motive , or do you suppose God holds a standard over us He is not willing to lift a finger to teach to us by example ?
see Matthew 5.

For even the Law is said to be good , and a gift , yet did that which is good bring death to me ? No , it was sin ......... and so it is with God's grace , and all God's gifts , they are given graciously , mercifully , lovingly and are meant to lead all sinners to repentance (Romans 2) they are not given maliciously , covertly , fraudulently or treacherously otherwise you could never trust the giver.

The misuse of the bread and wine is the cause of greater condemnation , not the bread and wine and certainly not a malicious will nor desire in God.

 

[Iosias]

if a good gift is given with the express intention of malice the gift is hardly good in it's intention or in it's effect , it is rather a "poison chalice"....... also , the standard of whether something is TRULY good has everything to do with motive , or do you suppose God holds a standard over us He is not willing to lift a finger to teach to us by example ?
see Matthew 5.

For even the Law is said to be good , and a gift , yet did that which is good bring death to me ? No , it was sin ......... and so it is with God's grace , and all God's gifts , they are given graciously , mercifully , lovingly and are meant to lead all sinners to repentance (Romans 2) they are not given maliciously , covertly , fraudulently or treacherously otherwise you could never trust the giver.

http://www.rsglh.org/despising_gods.goodness.htm

May be your confusion lies over what the term "good" means.

"What is God's goodness? In the first place, God's goodness is that virtue of God by which He is in Himself infinite perfection. This is the background of all other goodnesses. God's goodness does not mean that he is our benefactor, that He bestows good upon us. God's goodness means, in the first place, that He is good in the sense of perfection. Because God is good in Himself, He also does good. God does good to all creatures. There is no exception. He does good to all creatures, organically considered and individually considered. God always does good. He does good to the wicked and to the righteous. When God blesses the righteous, He does good. When He curses the wicked, God does good. God would not do good, if He blessed the wicked. This, in the first place. God is in Himself good and the overflowing fountain of all goodnesses."

 

[cygnusx1]

http://www.rsglh.org/despising_gods.goodness.htm

May be your confusion lies over what the term "good" means.

"What is God's goodness? In the first place, God's goodness is that virtue of God by which He is in Himself infinite perfection. This is the background of all other goodnesses. God's goodness does not mean that he is our benefactor, that He bestows good upon us. God's goodness means, in the first place, that He is good in the sense of perfection. Because God is good in Himself, He also does good. God does good to all creatures. There is no exception. He does good to all creatures, organically considered and individually considered. God always does good. He does good to the wicked and to the righteous. When God blesses the righteous, He does good. When He curses the wicked, God does good. God would not do good, if He blessed the wicked. This, in the first place. God is in Himself good and the overflowing fountain of all goodnesses."

"maybe your confusion " , save it ! ....

here is approx where I stand ;

http://scott.andstuff.org/CommonGrace

 

[Iosias]

I have heard it all before.

 

[Jadis40]

Personally, I think John Wesley had a pretty good answer in his sermon entitled "On Divine Providence"

13. And is the Creator and Preserver of the world unconcerned for what he sees therein? Does he look upon these things either with a malignant or heedless eye? Is he an Epicurean god? Does he sit at ease in the heaven, without regarding the poor inhabitants of earth? It cannot be. He hath made us, not we ourselves, and he cannot despise the work of his own hands. We are his children: And can a mother forget the children of her womb? Yea, she may forget; yet will not God forget us! On the contrary, he hath expressly declared, that as his "eyes are over all the earth,"so he "is loving to every man, and his mercy is over all his works." Consequently, he is concerned every moment for what befalls every creature upon earth; and more especially for everything that befalls any of he children of men. It is hard, indeed, to comprehend this; nay, it is hard to believe it, considering the complicated wickedness, and the complicated misery, which we see on every side. But believe it we must, unless we will make God a liar; although it is sure, no man can comprehend it. It behoves us, then, to humble ourselves before God, and to acknowledge our ignorance. Indeed, how can we expect hat a man should be able to comprehend a worm? How much less can it be supposed, that a man can comprehend God!

14. He is infinite in wisdom as well as in power: And all his wisdom is continually employed in managing all the affairs of his creation for the good of all his creatures. For his wisdom and goodness go hand in hand: They are inseparably united, and continually act in concert with Almighty power, for the real good of all his creatures. His power being equal to his wisdom and goodness, continually co-operates with them. And to him all things are possible: He doeth whatsoever pleaseth him, in heaven and earth, and in the sea, and all deep places: And we cannot doubt of his exerting all his power, as in sustaining, so in governing, all that he has made.

http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/sermons/067.htm