Comments on the pope

Stormy · Feb 17, 2003

Today at 10:10 AM nyj said this in Post #40 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658447#post658447)

Because they were Christians. They died during the persecution of the Christians during the reign of the Roman Emperor Nero.

They were killed because they were Christians... but the Catholic Church was allowed to remain with a Pope?

Stormy · Feb 17, 2003

I will not continue with my questions. I have read much history of the early Roman Church and it did undergo many major changes. IMO many of these changes are not acceptable.

In spirit my sense of Christian Theology is that of a Catholic.

But I am apart from the Catholic Church.

What denomination would you believe would best suit me ... at least for now. Any suggestions? I want to find a church.

nyj · Feb 17, 2003

Today at 10:40 AM Stormy said this in Post #41 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658503#post658503)

They were killed because they were Christians... but the Catholic Church was allowed to remain with a Pope?

All of the Christian churches retained their leaders (ie: bishops). Many however were caught and killed. Those that were martyr'd had appointed successors so there would always be a shepherd to tend their respective flocks. The church was forced underground for a long time, that doesn't mean that it wasn't organized because it was. The churches constantly communicated and kept in touch, we still have many of those writings.

nyj · Feb 17, 2003

Today at 10:46 AM Stormy said this in Post #42 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658516#post658516)
I have read much history of the early Roman Church and it did undergo many major changes. IMO many of these changes are not acceptable.

I wish I knew what history you have read. Might I suggest a book?

One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic : The Early Church was the Catholic Church - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...in.title/102-2252470-5160944?v=glance&s=books

Today at 10:46 AM Stormy said this in Post #42 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658516#post658516)
In spirit my sense of Christian Theology is that of a Catholic.

But I am apart from the Catholic Church.

What denomination would you believe would best suit me ... at least for now. Any suggestions? I want to find a church.

Click to expand...

Do you believe that what Catholicism teaches is true? I believe you do because you say that your sense of Christian Theology is that of a Catholic. Have you considered attending an inquiry class where non-Catholics can go and ask questions of the Church to get answers?

Stormy · Feb 17, 2003

Am I wrong in thinking that a Catholic not only gives himself to Christ but also to the Church?

I believe as a Catholic when it comes to my relationship with Christ.

I do not believe as a Catholic when it comes to my relationship to the Church.

seebs · Feb 17, 2003

Today at 10:47 AM nyj said this in Post #43 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658519#post658519)

All of the Christian churches retained their leaders (ie: bishops). Many however were caught and killed. Those that were martyr'd had appointed successors so there would always be a shepherd to tend their respective flocks. The church was forced underground for a long time, that doesn't mean that it wasn't organized because it was. The churches constantly communicated and kept in touch, we still have many of those writings.

Many people believe that most or all of revelations was such a communication; the apocalyptic visions were code which other members of the early Church would have understood.

nyj · Feb 17, 2003

Today at 10:58 AM Stormy said this in Post #45 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658538#post658538)

Am I wrong in thinking that a Catholic not only gives himself to Christ but also to the Church?

Catholics believe we are the adopted sons and daughters of God. This makes us brothers and sisters of Christ. Yes, Catholicism is an individual exercise, but it is also one of community. Remember, we are all a part of the Body of Christ. The Church (which represents Catholic and non-Catholic alike) is that body, Christ is the head. Jesus said, what we do to the least of our brethren, we do unto Him... we are called to serve not only God, but others as well. So yes, Catholics are called to willingly give themselves to the service of others.

Or do you mean it in some other way. No, there are no blood oaths or secret rituals... if you go to Mass, you'll see what you get.

Stormy · Feb 17, 2003

I just had an idea.

There is a church that calls itself Catholic... that is not a part of the Roman Catholic Church.

I know you guys do not think it has a right to call itself Catholic. But can you tell me do they have the same basic Christian theology? Do they believe in the real presence at communion?

chelcb · Feb 17, 2003

Belief is not what makes Jesus present, it is a validly ordained priest. Stormy, maybe you could look into the orthodox Church?

nyj · Feb 17, 2003

Today at 11:18 AM chelcb said this in Post #49 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658579#post658579)

Stormy, maybe you could look into the orthodox Church?

Or better yet, an Eastern Rite Catholic Church. To a large degree, they have been given their own autonomy by the Pope (ie: freedom to govern their own affairs), but they are still Catholic.

Stormy · Feb 17, 2003

Today at 11:03 AM nyj said this in Post #47 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658549#post658549)

Or do you mean it in some other way. No, there are no blood oaths or secret rituals... if you go to Mass, you'll see what you get.

You have to believe what the Church comes up with in regard to itself.

(1) You have to believe that it is the only way to salvation. All other Christians only receive salvation by adoption of the Catholic Church.

I do not believe this.

(2) You must take into your beliefs whatever the Church or the Pope decides is true.

I can not relinquish the control of my Faith to anyone other than God.

(3) You believe that God speaks through your Pope to you.

I believe that God speaks directly to my heart and soul.

(4) You believe the Church is infallible.

I believe that we must be on constant alert. I trust no one totally.

(5) You totally must believe in all the Marian documents.

I honor Mary but I have no desire for anything even remotely resembling a goddess.

Basically I do not believe anything that the Church has came up with since Peter and Paul.

But the theology of Christianity has not been harmed. I believe in all she teaches... aside of all she has added since proclaiming infallibility.

Stormy · Feb 17, 2003

I will look into the other Catholic Churches.

Are we still friends?

nyj · Feb 17, 2003

Today at 11:25 AM Stormy said this in Post #51 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658590#post658590)

You have to believe what the Church comes up with in regard to itself.

The Church doesn't "come up with" anything.

(1) You have to believe that it is the only way to salvation. All other Christians only receive salvation by adoption of the Catholic Church.

I do not believe this.

Click to expand...

No. Christians also receive salvation by adoption into the family of God by baptism.

(2) You must take into your beliefs whatever the Church or the Pope decides is true.

I can not relinquish the control of my Faith to anyone other than God.

Click to expand...

Yes, we must believe that which the Holy Spirit reveals as Truth.

(3) You believe that God speaks through your Pope to you.

I believe that God speaks directly to my heart and soul.

Click to expand...

Yes, God speaks directly to us as well. No Catholic would tell you otherwise.

(4) You believe the Church is infallible.

I believe that we must be on constant alert. I trust no one totally.

Click to expand...

The Church is infallible on issues of faith and morals, yes. As far as trusting no one totally, I'm sorry you feel that way.

(5) You totally must believe in all the Marian documents.

I honor Mary but I have no desire for anything even remotely resembling a goddess.

Click to expand...

Marian documents?

chelcb · Feb 17, 2003

(1) You have to believe that it is the only way to salvation. All other Christians only receive salvation by adoption of the Catholic Church. 

This is not entirely true, it is not seen in that light.

2) You must take into your beliefs whatever the Church or the Pope decides is true.

The pope does not just pop up a decide stuff, the stuff he decides has been part of our deposit of faith from the beginning, you will not find required things that we believe to ever change or anything new popping up.

3) You believe that God speaks through your Pope to you.

No, we belivev that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church and God will guide her through out the ages.

4) You believe the Church is infallible

Since the church is what Jesus gave us, I would say that yeah its not going to lead us down the wrong road.

5) You totally must believe in all the Marian documents.

No, you must accept, but you do not have to understand, only that you trust that the church will not deceive.

Stormy · Feb 17, 2003

nyj: You are a very good Roman Catholic. I would not be.
I carry within me the same faith in God as you... but my faith does not extend to the Church. It would be a lie if I pretended. That would not be a good basis for faith. Agree?

Friends?

chelcb · Feb 17, 2003

Stormy,

The problem is that whatever Church you decide on there is always going to be an element of having to trust in another's interpretation of truth.

The best thing I can suggest is find not who has THE truth, but who is closest in presenting the truth.

All religions and denominations including Catholics have leaky boats. We are a fallen human race, that is to be expected, it's finding the one with the less leaks in their boat.

Stormy · Feb 17, 2003

Today at 11:46 AM chelcb said this in Post #56 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658629#post658629)

Stormy,

The problem is that whatever Church you decide on there is always going to be an element of having to trust in another's interpretation of truth.

No, I will never trust another's interpretation of the truth. You and nyj, might view my inability to trust man with my faith, as a weakness. I see it as a strength.

I know my Shepherds voice. It is to him that I listen.

I am not looking to be changed. The work that Christ as began in me.. he will complete. I do not need to be preached to. I am instead looking for fellowship and a way to be of use to my community as a Christian. I want a place where we not only hear God's word... but we do his work.

Miss Shelby · Feb 17, 2003

You and nyj, might view my inability to trust man with my faith, as a weakness. I see it as a strength.

Stormy, Catholics don't believe that their faith is being led by man. Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding and protecting the Church. You don't have to agree with that, but that's why Catholics trust the Church.

Michelle

Stormy · Feb 17, 2003

You can see where it would be wrong for me to become Catholic in my frame of mind?

Still ... I want a church now! I want to be baptised in a lake this spring!

But I am not ... at least yet... ready to be Catholic in the true Roman sense.

Miss Shelby · Feb 17, 2003

I'm not trying to convince you to be Catholic. I can understand your desire to attend a Church, but I really wouldn't know what to recommend. Maybe you should just give it some prayerful consideration and see where the Lord leads you.

Michelle

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