Commandments for Gentiles?

[pat34lee]

Why? Because the Bible doesn't tell you so?

Actually, because the Tanakh says it is false in several places.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Actually, because the Tanakh says it is false in several places.

For instance...?

 

[pat34lee]

For instance...?

The talmud claims to have been transmitted orally from Moses to Joshua to the elders and to the rabbis. This can be broken at the first link.

Joshua 8
34 And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the law.
35 There was not a word of all that Moses commanded, which Joshua read not before all the congregation of Israel, with the women, and the little ones, and the strangers that were conversant among them.
​

Joshua read every word that Moses commanded. All of it was written down.

Deuteronomy 30
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
​

All of the statutes they were to obey were written down.

Deuteronomy 29
29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
​

Everything we need to know in order to follow the law is in the law.

Deuteronomy 4
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
​

No fences are needed around the Torah, as it is perfect as written. When you change the focus of a command, you change the command. If you look at how Eve was deceived in the garden, it seems that Adam built a fence around the command God gave him concerning the tree. He was the only one who could have told Eve "neither shall ye touch it". The serpent was able to show that part was a lie, and cast doubt on the real command.

See also 2 Kings 22 and Nehemiah 8.

 

[Steve Petersen]

The Torah which was written down gave the priests and elders the authority to make binding legal rulings for Israel (Deuteronomy 17.)

Even Jesus recognized this in Matthew 23.

 

[pat34lee]

The Torah which was written down gave the priests and elders the authority to make binding legal rulings for Israel (Deuteronomy 17.)

Even Jesus recognized this in Matthew 23.

No book or set of laws can cover every conceivable circumstance. This is why judges were necessary. They were not to make law from nothing, or to change the law, but to apply the principles of the Torah to new situations as they arose.

 

[ananda]

No book or set of laws can cover every conceivable circumstance. This is why judges were necessary. They were not to make law from nothing, or to change the law, but to apply the principles of the Torah to new situations as they arose.

The Torah, as a whole, teaches the very simple concept of common law, succinctly summarized by Messiah: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Mt 7:12. Equal weights and equal judgments to right wrongs; this was the only remedy that Scripturally lawful judges could mete out.

Others would rather install and support an insidious system of equity law, where empowered individuals had much leeway to add to, subtract from, or change existing law to suit what they felt was right in their own eyes in any particular case. Sounds familiar?

 

[annier]

The Torah which was written down gave the priests and elders the authority to make binding legal rulings for Israel (Deuteronomy 17.)

Yep, I agree.
De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried.

Even Jesus recognized this in Matthew 23.

Yep, agree again. The Pharisees had authority as officers of the high court presided over by the chief justices the priests. As a sect however, they were divided from their own head of authority= hypocrisy. I kinda think of them as activist Judges. they tried to rule from the bench LOL.

 

[pat34lee]

Yep, I agree.
De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried.


Yep, agree again. The Pharisees had authority as officers of the high court presided over by the chief justices the priests. As a sect however, they were divided from their own head of authority= hypocrisy. I kinda think of them as activist Judges. they tried to rule from the bench LOL.

Activist judges is a good way to put it during the 2nd temple period. But after the temple was destroyed, they threw out the standards altogether and made their own laws, setting themselves up as the lawgivers and sole authorities of the law. The Christians under Constantine did the same thing.

 

[danny ski]

Some pretty sweeping statements with no examples.

 

[aniello]

Activist judges is a good way to put it during the 2nd temple period. But after the temple was destroyed, they threw out the standards altogether and made their own laws, setting themselves up as the lawgivers and sole authorities of the law. The Christians under Constantine did the same thing.

Good observation.

Observe that the U.S. is parallelling this as our activist judges erode our foundation document here. What's bizarre is that most in the U.S. expect to have something other than bad results.

To quote George Santayana:

"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. "

A question:

Is it possible that upon occasion the phrase "Torah observant Judaism" could be an oxymoron, not unlike "Biblical Christianity"?

Just musing here.

 

[annier]

Activist judges is a good way to put it during the 2nd temple period. But after the temple was destroyed, they threw out the standards altogether and made their own laws, setting themselves up as the lawgivers and sole authorities of the law. The Christians under Constantine did the same thing.

Some interesting tid bits concerning this.
The Pharisees abolished a book of decrees by the priesthood. No date is recorded for it's abolishment.
home : index : Judaea : article by Jona Lendering ©

Sadducees


In practice, the Law of Moses is not always very clear and the Sadducees had interpretative traditions of their own, which were written down in a book of jurisprudence known as the Book of Decrees. The existence of this penal code is known from a rabbinical source, the Megilla Ta'anit, a calendar like text that states that the Book of Decrees was revoked on the fourth of Tammuz (no year is given). The code is described as very harsh: the author of the Megilla Ta'anit states that the Sadducees had taken the famous line Exodus 21.24, 'an eye for an eye', literally. The Pharisees allowed the person who had blinded another, to pay damages.
Several other aspects of Sadducee theology are known. For example, many sources state that they maintained that souls die with the bodies (e.g., Flavius Josephus, Jewish antiquities 18.16; Mark 12.18-27). The rabbinical text known as 'Avot de rabbi Nathan states that a discussion about this subject was the cause of the schism between Pharisees and Sadducees.

Kinda makes this verse a little more interesting heh?

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

 

[pat34lee]

Some pretty sweeping statements with no examples.

Which statements need examples to clarify them?

 

[danny ski]

If you going to accuse them of judicial activism in the 1st CE, you should provide some examples.

 

[pat34lee]

If you going to accuse them of judicial activism in the 1st CE, you should provide some examples.

Ok. Let's start with the name of Yahuah (or Yahweh or YHWH). This actually began several centuries earlier. Who gave the early rabbis the authority to first discourage the use of the name and eventually make it a capital offense to say it? It was not the scriptures, which say to call on his name, bless his name, etc.

The New Testament gives several examples of the traditions that the rabbis expected the people to follow. One was the washing of hands ritually before eating. It had nothing to do with cleanliness, and had no basis in scripture.

Matthew 15
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
​

Every tradition that is regarded as a law, but is not in scripture, is activism. The kippah is a later example. Fences around the Torah are also activism, expanding the law where it had no place.

 

[hypshark]

Ok. Let's start with the name of Yahuah (or Yahweh or YHWH). This actually began several centuries earlier. Who gave the early rabbis the authority to first discourage the use of the name and eventually make it a capital offense to say it? It was not the scriptures, which say to call on his name, bless his name, etc.

The New Testament gives several examples of the traditions that the rabbis expected the people to follow. One was the washing of hands ritually before eating. It had nothing to do with cleanliness, and had no basis in scripture.

Matthew 15
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
​

Every tradition that is regarded as a law, but is not in scripture, is activism. The kippah is a later example. Fences around the Torah are also activism, expanding the law where it had no place.

The adding of sacraments by a certain church, saying that it was necessary for salvation, by praying to secondary "dieties," incorporating graven images, adding indulgences, new holidays, sabbaths, and transubstantiation...could that be activism?

 

[pat34lee]

The adding of sacraments by a certain church, saying that it was necessary for salvation, by praying to secondary "dieties," incorporating graven images, adding indulgences, new holidays, sabbaths, and transubstantiation...could that be activism?

Yes, which is why I included both groups in post 348.

 

[hypshark]

Yes, which is why I included both groups in post 348.

oops, I must've skipped that page! (sheepish) sorry!

 

[annier]

Ok. Let's start with the name of Yahuah (or Yahweh or YHWH). This actually began several centuries earlier. Who gave the early rabbis the authority to first discourage the use of the name and eventually make it a capital offense to say it? It was not the scriptures, which say to call on his name, bless his name, etc.

The New Testament gives several examples of the traditions that the rabbis expected the people to follow. One was the washing of hands ritually before eating. It had nothing to do with cleanliness, and had no basis in scripture.

Matthew 15
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
​

Every tradition that is regarded as a law, but is not in scripture, is activism. The kippah is a later example. Fences around the Torah are also activism, expanding the law where it had no place.

Doesn't activism mean to legislate from the bench rather than adjudicate from the bench? At least that is how I used the term. Not so much an expansion, as an undoing of previous legislation.

 

[danny ski]

Our judges acted within the Law and according to the Law as commanded in the Torah. Wether it's the name of G-d or head covering, our Sages were mandated to settle issues and set standards. None of their rulings were ever taken lightly nor implemented on a whim. Since you're not bound by our rules, you're free to disregard kippa or Hannukha; you can even use any shade of blue in tzi tzi you fancy. Only keep in mind that there's no such thing as theology/tradition free Torah observance. Even among the Karaites. As is the MJ which filters the Torah through the non Torah sources.

 

[visionary]

Our judges acted within the Law and according to the Law as commanded in the Torah. Wether it's the name of G-d or head covering, our Sages were mandated to settle issues and set standards. None of their rulings were ever taken lightly nor implemented on a whim. Since you're not bound by our rules, you're free to disregard kippa or Hannukha; you can even use any shade of blue in tzi tzi you fancy. Only keep in mind that there's no such thing as theology/tradition free Torah observance. Even among the Karaites. As is the MJ which filters the Torah through the non Torah sources.

Yep, once man is satisfied that they have figured out how to meet the requirements, it becomes a tradition.