Commandments for Gentiles?

xDenax said:

Didn't joining the people speak of physically joining the people? Sharing similar beliefs is not joining the people. I've been watching an interesting lecture series from Yale on the Hebrew Bible. In the first class the professor mentions the idea that religion to the Isralites differs from the way we perceive it today in the west. Religion here is often very much about beliefs. For the Israelites, you become an Isralites by joining the people and living as one of them, according to traditions and culture. It was nice to hear this understanding even from a scholar and academic.

I still stand by my statements. Messianic Gentiles seem to feel that because we (Jews or other Messianics) believe they are not required to observe the law that it somehow makes them inferior. That having more rules and restrictions makes a person superior or more special God. That is not the case. You simply don't have the obligation.

If my neighbor shops at the local co-op on Saturday buying locally grown organic produce and humanly raised dairy am I better than her because I can't do so? No. Not at all. I am different but I am not better. I shop on Sunday and miss out on the dairy. We're playing different parts in the grand scheme of life but her life has merit and my life has merit.

If someone catches you eating shrimp what are they going to think? Is it going to reflect negatively on the Jewish community? Not likely. If you steal money what affect will that have on the reputation of the Jewish people? None. It will have an effect on your reputation as an individual, perhaps as a person who believes in Jesus and maybe the reputation of your family. If you go on public television and start ranting like a lunatic what will people think of the Jewish community? Nothing.

If someone catches me eating shrimp what are they going to think? She's a hypocrite. She can't even be bothered to adhere to my own religious traditions. She doesn't take Judaism seriously. She doesn't take God seriously. Jews think they've got it right and they don't even follow the rules. If I steal money? Oh, well, everybody knows Jews are greedy. You can't trust Jews with your money. If they can make a dime off you they will do it. If I go on public television ranting like a lunatic? I'm an embarrassment to the Jewish people.

If you truly want to be in the second position then you need to ask yourself why? And then, do you need to change your perspective or change your life?

I hate to see Messianic Gentiles essentially denigrating their position as non-Jews as if it's somehow wrong, unhealthy, inferior or undesirable. This is just not so. Nobody is inferring such when they make the statement that you are not obligated to all of Jewish Law.

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Very astute analysis and thanks for taking the time in sharing some of your perspectives from a Jewish point of view. There does often seem to be themes of feeling as if one is somehow "less" by not being obligated to all the things Jews were - as if going by all of them made one more valuable or special to the Lord - but some things are all about distinctions rather than who has more values, just as penguins are not "less" special than eagles because they cannot soar in the air (even though they fly in the seas counter to what eagles are capable of) ...and peacocks don't try to be falcons, as both were designed/designated by the Lord for specific things.

It seems much of Judaism has often noted the same - not focusing on the question of "Is Torah meant for the Gentiles?" but rather "What specific parts of Torah were Gentiles given to follow for instruction?" - and that's something that makes a difference. It's no different than having families where all are under the rule of Mom/Dad and all are taken care of - yet the parents do not relate to each child the same way......and coming from a blended family myself (with half brothers, half sisters and step brother/sisters), it's an everyday reality that I'm glad occurred as it did. All children are expected to respect their parents - yet that doesn't mean all children universally are to act the same in all areas or that parents expect their children to be wired the same.

A 8yr old artist would go to art classes by order of the parent because that is their calling/destiny while another 9yr old sibling gifted in atheletics would be expected to enter into training to perfect their gift - and a 14yr old who wants to be a doctor/is called to such will have the parents give differing assignments. The same principle with diversity also goes for chores - as all kids being expected to do chores doesn't mean they all get the same chores to do - nor does it mean they look at each other and say "No FAIR!!!" when someone has a differing chore/expectation than another. Good parents know how to relate to their kids differently and yet expect all to hold universal principles at the same time (i.e. honor, respect, love, truth, righteousness, responsibility, etc.)...

It's the same with the Lord - from what I've seen noted in the TOrah and what the rabbis/Judaism has often pointed out. If one wants to honor/observe what the Torah said in order to show one wishes to please the Lord or be approved by him, it seems one must square with how the Torah gives clear distinctions...

In other words: he treats everyone equally, but not necessarily the same.

Avodat said:

In other words: he treats everyone equally, but not necessarily the same.

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Precisely..
It was here where we see the Gentile Church experiencing the Gentile Pentecost in Acts 10-11 (with the meeting of Cornelius and Peter years later). And yet Gentiles and Jews were still distinct in their experiences/practices.

xDenax said:

Why do you want to join with a community who [mostly] believes you worship a false god? Why do you so desperately want to be a part of Israel? I think you have to answer those questions first and then go from there.

In your perfect world, what would it look like for you (Messianic Gentiles) to join with the rest of the Jewish community?

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I think it is more to do with God's blessings.

Which blessings would those be?

xDenax said:

Which blessings would those be?

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Isaiah 56 comes to mind.


3 Let no foreigner who is bound to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely exclude me from his people.”
And let no eunuch complain,
“I am only a dry tree.”
4 For this is what the Lord says:

“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me
and hold fast to my covenant—
5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls
a memorial and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that will endure forever.
6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord
to minister to him,
to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Sovereign Lord declares—
he who gathers the exiles of Israel:
“I will gather still others to them
besides those already gathered.”

xDenax said:

Which blessings would those be?

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With His Presence, His hand guiding our lives, and to be found with out guile... Then there is the blessing to side with Israel... The Lord may not have specified what kind of blessings we get out of it, but given all the blessing of just knowing Him, it is all good.

Steve Petersen said:

Isaiah 56 comes to mind.


3 Let no foreigner who is bound to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely exclude me from his people.”
And let no eunuch complain,
“I am only a dry tree.”
4 For this is what the Lord says:

“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me
and hold fast to my covenant—
5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls
a memorial and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that will endure forever.
6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord
to minister to him,
to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Sovereign Lord declares—
he who gathers the exiles of Israel:
“I will gather still others to them
besides those already gathered.”

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Perfect..

visionary said:

Perfect..

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Just a question.

7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations.”

Is any of this covered or guaranteed by Yeshua's sacrifice? Or do you think to have joy in a house of prayer or to have sacrifices and offerings accepted, one must keep the Sabbath?

Qnts2 said:

Just a question.

7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations.”

Is any of this covered or guaranteed by Yeshua's sacrifice? Or do you think to have joy in a house of prayer or to have sacrifices and offerings accepted, one must keep the Sabbath?

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Earthly and heavenly temples. Different venues. Different priests. Both can and have functioned simultaneously in the past. Don't know why they couldn't in the future as well.

Steve Petersen said:

Earthly and heavenly temples. Different venues. Different priests. Both can and have functioned simultaneously in the past. Don't know why they couldn't in the future as well.

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Thank you for your answers! I couldn't have said it better. We are connected even if we weren't born into that House of Prayer, we are full-fledged citizens because of the finshed work of Moshiach. It was promised, it came to pass and we today are living that prophecy.

yedida said:

we are full-fledged citizens because of the finshed work of Moshiach.

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Full-fledged citizens of what?

Also, where does the Torah teach that non-Jews become full fledged citizens of anything because of the Messiah? I'm confused...

And finally, The picture I'm being painted here is that you [non-Jewish messianics] want to be special and get gifts from God. You want to be a part of Israel for the rewards you perceive are to be gained. Is this incorrect?

What if there were no blessings, no rewards, no specialness and God did not care one way or another?

xDenax said:

Full-fledged citizens of what?

Also, where does the Torah teach that non-Jews become full fledged citizens of anything because of the Messiah? I'm confused...

And finally, The picture I'm being painted here is that you [non-Jewish messianics] want to be special and get gifts from God. You want to be a part of Israel for the rewards you perceive are to be gained. Is this incorrect?

What if there were no blessings, no rewards, no specialness and God did not care one way or another?

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Dena, you came out of christianity, converted to Judaism not too many years ago - you know these answers from your upbringing. Why are you pretending ignorance of these things? I don't understand

xDenax said:

Full-fledged citizens of what?

Also, where does the Torah teach that non-Jews become full fledged citizens of anything because of the Messiah? I'm confused...

And finally, The picture I'm being painted here is that you [non-Jewish messianics] want to be special and get gifts from God. You want to be a part of Israel for the rewards you perceive are to be gained. Is this incorrect?

What if there were no blessings, no rewards, no specialness and God did not care one way or another?

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Then why would He require them of us? If we have no requirements from Him, no part in His kingdom with its responsibilities, and no blessings, rewards, etc.. then why call us?

Steve Petersen said:

Earthly and heavenly temples. Different venues. Different priests. Both can and have functioned simultaneously in the past. Don't know why they couldn't in the future as well.

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So you think Yeshua's sacrifice only has importance in the heavenly Temple, and the joy and acceptance for the earthly Temple requires Sabbath keeping. Without that, there is no joy on earth or acceptance by God? The blessings have to wait until we reach heaven?

yedida said:

Dena, you came out of Christianity, converted to Judaism not too many years ago - you know these answers from your upbringing. Why are you pretending ignorance of these things? I don't understand

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No yedida, I do not. My experience is entirely different than yours. I did not have the same background, I did not have the same feelings, I was not taught the things you discuss here, I did not have the same motivations and I did not go through the same mental processes. I was never Messianic. I sincerely do not understand what is being presented here. I am not sure why you think that just because I am a convert I should understand? I do not, which is why I ask so many questions.

visionary said:

Then why would He require them of us? If we have no requirements from Him, no part in His kingdom with its responsibilities, and no blessings, rewards, etc.. then why call us?

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Vis, the question is rooted in Jewish teaching and understanding.

Jewish people do not keep the commandments to receive blessings or rewards.

Qnts2 said:

Vis, the question is rooted in Jewish teaching and understanding.

Jewish people do not keep the commandments to receive blessings or rewards.

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Yep these are the promises... blessings and curses....

Messianics believe in the God of the Jews > They believe in Jesus as the Messiah> They believe Jews will be given rewards and from God for being observant > They want rewards> They want to be a part of Israel so they too can be observant and receive rewards and blessings

Is there something I'm omitted or adding here that is incorrect?

visionary said:

Yep these are the promises... blessings and curses....

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In Judaism, a Jewish person would not keep the Sabbath to receive blessings. And the curses listed in scripture are more corporate, meaning if most of the children of Israel failed to keep the Sabbath, but I did, as a nation, we are all punished, so even if I kept the Sabbath faithfully, and most did not, I experience the curses also.

So, I as a Jew, do not keep the Sabbath to receive blessings or to avoid curses.

As a Jew, the only way to fully keep the law is to do so with no anticipation of any gain. Blessing is not even a factor or motivation.