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It doesn't make sense to me that if eating a certain way is bad for Jews, it would not be bad for Gentiles...and, the same with celebrating the Feasts.
My purpose is not to state whether or not Paul is or is not a false apostle. I'm simply focusing on the fact that nowhere is it expressly required that one must believe that he is a true apostle.This debate about Paul being a false prophet has been discussed on here very thoroughly. I am surprised you are not aware of it. The two texts quoted, taken together, in context, make the CF view very clear. I doubt that CF would write what they wrote if they intended to say that one mustn't trust him or his word or if they intended any doubt to exist in what they wrote. It is also the generally accepted view within the MJ fora and so may not be countered by anyone. With respect, your comments are a bit of a nonsense response, as I am sure you must see, with hind-sight.
There are many canons called "The Book". Which one are you referring to as the authoritative canon for CF?Which book? The Book
My purpose is not to state whether or not Paul is or is not a false apostle. I'm simply focusing on the fact that nowhere is it required that one must believe that he is a true apostle.
There are many canons called "The Book". Which one are you referring to as the authoritative canon for CF?
My purpose is not to state whether or not Paul is or is not a false apostle. I'm simply focusing on the fact that nowhere is it expressly required that one must believe that he is a true apostle.
There are many canons called "The Book". Which one are you referring to as the authoritative canon for CF?
No, when I joined, I was using the Messianic scroll...that was back in Sept-Oct. I was a member here years ago...but, would not have been interested in this forum then, if it even existed.
Dena, by all mean, please share. I am definitely interested in what you have to say.
Like I said, I was curious about people in other places mentioning laws for gentiles. I know what Acts 15 says and it didn't make any sense to me that Acts implies learning the Torah and then some say that it is split. I understand that there are different laws for priest and men (as well as inhabitants of Israel) than me...but, it seems to me that the majority still applies.
I agree. It just doesn't make sense that the Father would have 2 sets of rules for the kids of His household. A good earthly father doesn't have several sets of rules (at least not where age-appropriateness is not involved). And if there are two children of similar age, one natural, one adopted, in that earthly home, there are certainly not two sets of rules for them! If there was, discord would run rampant within! And I believe that's exactly what is happening in MJ. We are all being told that there are two sets of rules. Why? Is one group that super special over the other? Is one group just too stupid, or too intelligent? Why would He have two sets of House rules? Hashem is not the author of confusion and discord. One Father, One Savior, one new man, one set of instructions on how to live out our walk of faith.
Totally agree. Also, noone seems to include dietary rules in the Noahide Laws which doesn't make any sense to me. I think it's just more of the same...what can we interpret to NOT apply to us.
Totally agree. Also, noone seems to include dietary rules in the Noahide Laws which doesn't make any sense to me. I think it's just more of the same...what can we interpret to NOT apply to us.
we even have a non-trin Messianic icon. So we don't have to agree with it 100%....
Is one group that super special over the other? Is one group just too stupid, or too intelligent?
Here is where I think you guys run into problems. Having more rules does not mean we're more special or more intelligent. It just means we have more restrictions and when we mess up, we mess up for the entire Jewish people. If you are really eager to be held accountable for messing up on behalf of the entire Jewish people then perhaps you need to re-evalute your life and what's really important to you.
But you also know, having been raised in it, that Yeshua did not come along to start up a new religion or way of life. He continued to teach Torah. If He was going to change all that, I'm sure He would have indicated as much, but He didn't. He continued to stress the Torah's instructions for a set-apart life and faith system.
The only thing He changed was that gentiles could join in and be accepted without officially becoming a party member to any of the practicing Judaic groups or sects (of the day), and that holds true today as well; Messianic Judaism was and still is just another sect of Judaism (even though today it is no longer recognized as such by greater Judaism).
Jesus spoke to Jews.
I'm not sure what point you are making? Did Jesus ever mention this? Didn't joining the people speak of physically joining the people? Sharing similar beliefs is not joining the people. I've been watching an interesting lecture series from Yale on the Hebrew Bible. In the first class the professor mentions the idea that religion to the Isralites differs from the way we perceive it today in the west. Religion here is often very much about beliefs. For the Israelites, you become an Isralites by joining the people and living as one of them, according to traditions and culture. It was nice to hear this understanding even from a scholar and academic.
I still stand by my statements. Messianic Gentiles seem to feel that because we (Jews or other Messianics) believe they are not required to observe the law that it somehow makes them inferior. That having more rules and restrictions makes a person superior or more special God. That is not the case. You simply don't have the obligation.
If my neighbor shops at the local co-op on Saturday buying locally grown organic produce and humanly raised dairy am I better than her because I can't do so? No. Not at all. I am different but I am not better. I shop on Sunday and miss out on the dairy. We're playing different parts in the grand scheme of life but her life has merit and my life has merit.
If someone catches you eating shrimp what are they going to think? Is it going to reflect negatively on the Jewish community? Not likely. If you steal money what affect will that have on the reputation of the Jewish people? None. It will have an effect on your reputation as an individual, perhaps as a person who believes in Jesus and maybe the reputation of your family. If you go on public television and start ranting like a lunatic what will people think of the Jewish community? Nothing.
If someone catches me eating shrimp what are they going to think? She's a hypocrite. She can't even be bothered to adhere to my own religious traditions. She doesn't take Judaism seriously. She doesn't take God seriously. Jews think they've got it right and they don't even follow the rules. If I steal money? Oh, well, everybody knows Jews are greedy. You can't trust Jews with your money. If they can make a dime off you they will do it. If I go on public television ranting like a lunatic? I'm an embarrassment to the Jewish people.
If you truly want to be in the second position then you need to ask yourself why? And then, do you need to change your perspective or change your life?
I hate to see Messianic Gentiles essentially denigrating their position as non-Jews as if it's somehow wrong, unhealthy, inferior or undesirable. This is just not so. Nobody is inferring such when they make the statement that you are not obligated to all of Jewish Law.
there are many messianics who would love to join in with the Israelites with the customs and traditions but we are pushed away
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