Commandments for Gentiles?

Yahudim · Jan 16, 2013

Gxg (G²);62193974 said:
Incorrect - and that has been noted by several repeatedly. Deal with what was already given rather than asking for more while avoiding what's given. Until then, there is no discussion since you have already been told on the matter and simply don't like what you get. No one really cares to deal with that

Can you provide a link to this supposed 'proof'?

visionary said:
of course... the person who is doing the loving part of neighbors is doing right... but that still does not dismiss this same person from hearing the word and being obedient too it. If this same person who does a great work rescuing girls, but turns a deaf ear to obedience to God commands when he is presented with it, might make it into the kingdom, not because of these righteous deeds but because of the loving motive in his heart.. but alas will still be classified "least" in the kingdom.. for not observing the weightier matters of the law that were brought to his attention. God can wink at the parts of this person's life when he didn't know. But when it came to his attention of what God required of him, and he rebelled against His Kingdom's Laws.. he will face the consequences of those actions... in spite of his good deeds with the rescue work.

Wonderful! Could not have said it better!

Lulav · Jan 16, 2013

Gxg (G²);62193825 said:
His disciples also taught Torah as it was to be interpreted. There is no getting around the bottom line fact that Yeshua championed a Samaritan as keeping the Spirit of Torah by helping their neighbors in need in contrast to the most observant people ever such as the Priest and Levite (Luke 10:25-39) -

He was giving an example of what loving your neighbor meant and who was your neighboor he wasn't championing any specific individual, but explaining to them that even those they had be taught to despise were to be loved. This is nothing new, it is found in Torah. He was also teaching to show mercy over observance, to not shirk the one for the other, this was a lesson he taught over and over such as in where he spoke of the pharisees being very careful to tithe on the smallest of their produce but ignore loving their parents and taking care of them. His words were that they were to do both. Again, Torah.

Gxg (G²);62193825 said:
something the rabbis often noted of Him and Hillel as a matter of making God's commands universal in simplicity...and echoed by the Apostles repeatedly when noting love fulfills the Law.

Love does not fulfill the command to be obedient.

Gxg (G²);62193825 said:
It is misleading to talk on Observance and avoid where Yeshua never did have a mindset of Gentiles keeping all things asked of the Hebrews - be it with the Samaritan, or the Samaritan Woman/her community when it came to Evangelism (John 4), or the Demonized man in Mark 5 ...the Roman Centurion who had greater faith than all in Israel and a host of others.

Samaritans had the Torah, but they were anxious to hear from him how to do it, they were expecting Messiah to come, they were not considered Heathens/Gentiles either. I don't know what you are going on about on those other two..........

Gxg (G²);62193825 said:
Already shared before - some of that referenced in the thread/referenced for other occassions. Not going to share again if it cannot be looked up first.

???

Gxg (G²);62193825 said:
Already clarified earlier as it was acknowledged by several - for it has never been said that Torah was not to be kept and it is simplistic to assume such when it is noted that not all aspects of it were ever applicable to all groups or that no one claiming to be more "observant" than others (and thus judging) has any right to do so since the scriptures note repeatedly we're not to judge/not one is perfect at any point. many of the 613 commandments do not apply to everyone, but t Christ and John in Rev 22 specified the "Big Ten" - the "Ten Things" - the Ten Commandments - do apply to everyone. That said, again, I've noted this on a number of occassions since our first couple of convos we had ( #93 #138 , #182 and #183 ) - in agreement with others (such as Contra, SHimshon, Qnts2, etc.) - and you've already made plain repeatedly you disagree with it. Thus, there's nothing new to discuss as if there was any misunderstanding when questions come up since you have already made plain what you think.

Again, I see another 'Christianism', "don't judge" but Yeshua never said that, had he done so he would be speaking against Torah.

Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

That is the commandment he was expanding upon when he said in John 7:

Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. 23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken ; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Not according to God's law, T. Judaism has identified 613 commandments in the Torah or first five books of the Bible. They are called mitzvoth or good deeds. 365 of them, the number of days in the solar year, are prohibitive in nature. That is, they describe actions we are not to take. The other 248, the number of organs and limbs in a human body according to the Rabbis, are performative in nature. That is, they describe actions we are to take. These two numbers are interpreted to mean that man should be practicing these commands every day of the year. A good example of each type of commandment can be found in Lev 19:35 and 36. Lev 19 has many of the 613 commands in its verses

It was a TOTAL covenant...where if one breaks one part of it, ALL are broken. There's no escaping that in scripture.

James 2:8
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself,[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, Do not commit adultery,[b] also said, Do not murder.[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

[/quote]
This post seems to have grown exponentially since I read it and clicked the quote button. Anyway, The whole law is how Yeshua explained it, it is not just about 'love' but what that entails.

Lulav · Jan 16, 2013

visionary said:
of course... the person who is doing the loving part of neighbors is doing right... but that still does not dismiss this same person from hearing the word and being obedient too it. If this same person who does a great work rescuing girls, but turns a deaf ear to obedience to God commands when he is presented with it, might make it into the kingdom, not because of these righteous deeds but because of the loving motive in his heart.. but alas will still be classified "least" in the kingdom.. for not observing the weightier matters of the law that were brought to his attention. God can wink at the parts of this person's life when he didn't know. But when it came to his attention of what God required of him, and he rebelled against His Kingdom's Laws.. he will face the consequences of those actions... in spite of his good deeds with the rescue work.

Here's another example which I'm sure will cause an uproar, Everyone's heard of 'Mother Theresa' who worn what looked like a tallit upon her head, and served in India with the poor and dying, ceaselessly, she must be on the top of the list, right? She is the epitome of 'loving your neighbor' and that's all you need, right, as the Beatles beat into the minds of millions, all you need is love. .......... sadly I even heard a Jewish Rabbi sing this from the pulpit..............anyway, did you know that she taught all gods are the same?

Here are a couple of quotes

There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. Ive always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic."

Of course I convert. I convert you to be a better Hindu or a better Muslim or a better Protestant. Once youve found God, its up to you to decide how to worship him
(Mother Teresa Touched Other Faiths, AP, Sept. 7, 1997).

visionary · Jan 16, 2013

Gxg (G²);62193974 said:
Incorrect - and that has been noted by several repeatedly. You are are Gentile whether you like it or not

Yep - and that was covered in several discussions in-depth.

One can deal with what was already given rather than asking for more while avoiding what's given. Until then, there is no discussion since you have already been told on the matter and simply don't like what you get (Proverbs 14:6). No one really cares to deal with that - and as said before, this was already addressed on a couple of occassions...the most recent being discussion on the Body of Israel/Church as well as other discussions ( here, #31 , #44, #69 , #71 , #70 #84 , #117 , #130 , #142 ,#144 , #252 , etc. ).

Writing verbose arguments like a good lawyer... but it reminds me of Yeshua rebuttal... blocking the WAY and not entering yourself is not a good idea.
Luke 11:52
Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

yedida · Jan 16, 2013

Gxg (G²);62193713 said:
That's a good question to consider - and on the issue, it is something that impacts everyone since the reality is that all are ignorant of something, on one level or another. It's why the scriptures note repeatedly the danger of judging - as in "I do more than you do!!!" and procedding to claim others are insufficient followers of Messiah because they are not on a level you approve of...despite the fact that you may have areas where you either are unaware of what you do being off - or are inconsistent with some.

You may keep Kosher from what you understand in Levitcus 11 - thinking it was about DIETARY reasons when much of Judaism has noted it was about seperation - and yet you have a poor prayer life, something that was deemed to be sin in the Tanak since Prayerlessness does those around us a disservice (1 Samuel 12:23, 1 Timothy 2:1-2, 1 Thessalonians 5:17, Luke 18:1, Matthew 6:6)...and yet the person you judge because they did something you felt was UnKosher actually prays actively for others/intercedes faithfully before the Lord in a manner pleasing in His sight. You may claim you love the Lord/Honor Torah because you keep Shabbat - and yet in the process of railing against others that they "hate God's Torah" because of meeting on Sunday rather than Saturday, you may not realize you're corrupt in God's sight because you have a serious problem with attitudes/back-bitting and gossip on others you disagree with ( Psalm 12:3-4, Proverbs 18:8 , Proverbs 18:13, Col. 4:6 )

James 1:26
If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.
James 1:25-27

James 3:8-10/ James 3
With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in Gods likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be.

Someone may claim to keep the Laws on purity - and yet in their hearts, they have serious struggles with forgiveness - genuine forgiveness of others - and thus, they decieve themselves since Yeshua made plain in Matthew 6:13 that " if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." ( 1 Peter 2:1-3 , Colossians 3:7-9, etc. )...something Yeshua noted directly in the parable of the Unmerciful Servant and how the Lord responded to him for his treatment of others in Matthew 18:21-35

God also looks at the motives of the heart ( Proverbs 16:2 ) - and thus, it doesn't matter whether or not a person thinks they are observing more than another or doing more - as people can do things for selfish motives such as pride, self-satisfaction or appearing good - all of that being a matter of boasting and a worldly attitude ( 1 John 2:15-17 /1 John 2 )...whereas those who know they struggle/are incomplete are justified in God's sights

The same dynamics occurred in Luke 18:8-14 the same as what occurred with the Tax Collector and the Pharisee, the former continually recognizing his lack while the former continually prided himself on all the things he did according to the law and compared himself to others as the basis of why he was pleasing to God. In God's kingdom there is no allowance for pride or judging others in saying "I'm Torah Observant because I do X, Y and Z and have more concern for it than others" - as the same people doing so already have areas others look at them and say "You need to be doing this...."..and in the event someone says "Well, it just can't be done the same and I do as much as I think is necessary/I'm able to do", they end up placing themselves in the same category as others whom they've deemed as not being concerned with God's law because they equally feel certain things cannot be done or weren't meant to continue. It simply differs on the area.

As is the case with all systems of law, observance will be imperfect, and therefore that should be set aside when establishing what a true. Observance is more about how well a person is walking the Torah path. In Judaism, one can be a good Jew and not adopt the most obvious forms of observance- eg. a nominal modern Orthodox who is deeply involved in charity can be a good Jew whereas a Hasid who cheats on his taxes but never misses a minyan or a shiur may not be. From what I've studied in the scriptures, it does not seem to have ever been the case that Gentiles needed to keep all 613 laws - nor was it ever the case that those often denoucning Gentiles for not doing so come remotely close to keeping half of them.

There are literally hundreds of commandments that aren't kept by anyone, due to lack of a Temple and a functioning priesthood. And all "Torah Observant" people, including the most Orthodox in Judaism, have modified understandings of what it means to keep Torah. Not every law was for every person and all should know that basic reality. For many of the laws are specific one group to the next- Levites, Men, Women, Gentiles etc. It is because of this that many choose to avoid categorically making blanket statements about the Torah and Gentiles since it does not truly deal with the Torah on it's own terms - and as other Messianic Jews have noted, in honoring the Lord, the question scripture raises is never "do Gentiles have to keep Torah" but rather "what parts of the Torah must they keep etc". For others, they tend to go with the Rabbis like Hililel - the one whom most of Yeshua's teachings reflect and who advocated that Gentiles were saved/sanctified by living out what the Lord gave to Noah ....and that acceptance before God never required them to live the same as the Hebrews did.

But ultimately, as said before, the scriptures are clear that we are not to judge the observance of others. And personally, apart from the moral law (the core of it all - specifically hose laws which are summarzied by Yeshua and Hillel etc "do unto others" etc), I don't see where we've been given much room to judge people's observance and be acceptable before the Lord.

Matthew 7
Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brothers eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, Let me take the speck out of your eye, when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers eye.

Luke 6:37
[ Judging Others ] Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Luke 6:36-38

1 Corinthians 4:4-6 Corinthians 4
3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of mens hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

James 2:8
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself,[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, Do not commit adultery,[b] also said, Do not murder.[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

James 4:11-13 /James 4
11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But youwho are you to judge your neighbor?

1 Peter 4:8-10/ Peter 4
The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray. 8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9 Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10 Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering Gods grace in its various forms.

I never knew that keeping kosher (or observing Torah, obeying God's commands) had anything to do with our understanding of them at all. I thought we were to keep them and obey them because He commanded us to do so.
I quite agree with the separation idea, I thought it was very insightful, so I'd be curious to know all of those others in Judaism who say this as well. I haven't heard it by so many, "much of Judaism," that's impressive! Who are they and what are their works where I can read what they've said about it.

yedida · Jan 16, 2013

talmidim said:
Was that your take away? Really? 'Cause that's not what I read.

I think that what Mishkan is saying is that Messiah Y'shua of scripture is about as Orthodox and Torah observant a Jewish Rabbi as you will ever find and that He sent His talmidim to 'all nations' (goyim) with the message of Torah observance.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you...

I'm pretty sure that all He taught was Torah. So my take away would be - if anyone's doctrine does not accurately reflect who Y'shua was (and is) and what He commanded, then they might just be deceiving themselves.

That's what I thought he was saying too!

Gxg (G²) · Jan 16, 2013

visionary said:
of course... the person who is doing the loving part of neighbors is doing right... but that still does not dismiss this same person from hearing the word and being obedient too it. .

Not according to Yeshua - who worked with Gentiles all the time - and never asked or required that they had to be involved in the Mosaic Covenant for sanctification or justification before the Lord anymore than it was with Noah. This is is basic to Judaic thought and what the School of Hilel taught verbatim repeateldy - and what Yeshua emphasized, in addition to noting "Judge not lest you be judged."

talmidim said:
Can you provide a link to this supposed 'proof'?

Did - as have others before. Thus, can there be honesty in addressing what was already given - or does one choose to bury their head in the sand like nothing's there?

Lulav said:
He was giving an example of what loving your neighbor meant and who was your neighboor he wasn't championing any specific individual,

Not according to Yeshua - or Hiliel, who brought up the same concept. Of course, the parable Yeshua taught wasn't one where he was talking of a REAL Life person you could go and ask "So tell me about that one time you helped out the guy on the road - was it intense?!" ..but it did give real life applications to the Hebrews, people who already hated Samaritans at a myriad of points and despised them because they felt they didn't keep God's law.

As said before, The Good Samaritan parable (Luke 10:25-39) will always be one of the most powerful analogies in existence, itself being a parable that Rabbi Heliel already noted previously since he had the same mindset as Christ did when it came to acceptance of Gentiles within Judaism as he/others saw it (more discussed here and here at Hillel and The Good Samaritan | Think Hebrew or Yeshua and Hillel - Nazarene Space). Christ was asked about what the greatest commandments were in the Mosaic Law---and after stating what they were, he was challenged by another on it....at which point Christ pointed to a Samaritan (considered to be idolatrous, half-breed/mixed people related to the Jews) as the one living out what the Lord wanted more than all of the others one would have expected to be examples, as was the case with the Levite and the priest.

People often miss the significance of the Samaritan culture in what it symbolizes, as they practiced their own version of Judaism, and lived side by side with the Jews of Israel. Despite the striking similarities in religion, appearance, and language between the two people, they were treated by the xenophobic occupants of that ancient land as foreigners. For Jews, to be called a Samaritan meant in more general terms: a despised foreigner. To be called such was a deep insult, with the Jewish people even calling Christ one when denouncing him ( John 8:47-49 )....and yet for Christ, it was a honor to identify with them as well as love them/spread the Gospel to them and see them as fellow believers (more discussed here in #31 , #35 ,#52, #53 , #77, #78 , #85, & #95 ).

The one who challenged Christ could not even say "The Samaritan" due to the angst/beef Jews had with Samaritans...and instead chose to say "The one who had mercy on him" as the one who was truly a neighbor as the Lord saw it. In many ways, Christ rose the standard....in line with what he often did....and yet, he also took concepts beyond the bounds of a paticular religion when showing the simplicity of what it means to follow Him and be considered one of His own.

even those they had be taught to despise were to be loved.

That's one aspect of it, as the more direct application (per what Jewish believers in the early Body of Messiah noted) was that we were not to think less of those whom we felt weren't as "observant"/correct as ourselves. The person questioning Yeshua was a teacher of the Law - and when told to Love others, he tried to worm his out of it by asking "Well, who's my neighbor" - and Yeshua put him in check by noting that even a Samaritan (whom the teacher/others despised) could understand the concept of loving others - and know the basic command Christ just told them.......and he basically told the teacher it wasn't something he could act as if he didn't know what it meant to be a neighbor.

What Yeshua noted in Luke 10:25-39 followed directly after what occurred in His outreach to Samaritans in Luke 9:51-54 when the apostles were doing ministry and Christ went out to preach in a Samaritan village - and rebuked some of the apostles for wanting to call down fire on them after the Samaritans rebuffed them - and what Yeshua noted with the Good Samaritan also goes directly in Luke 17:12 where ten men who had leprosy asked Yeshua to heal them - and after healing him, only one came back - a Samaritan / foreigner who glorified the Lord by giving thanks - and that one was blessed by Yeshua. He did not think less of Samaritans automatically because of Him being Jewish - nor did He have the mindset that Samaritans were not beloved/able to walk out what the Lord wanted.

Originally Posted by Lulav

He was also teaching to show mercy over observance, to not shirk the one for the other, this was a lesson he taught over and over such as in where he spoke of the pharisees being very careful to tithe on the smallest of their produce but ignore loving their parents and taking care of them. His words were that they were to do both. Again, Torah.

Amen -

Originally Posted by Lulav

Love does not fulfill the command to be obedient.

Not according to scripture.

Romans 13:9

Love, for the Day Is Near

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,”[a] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.[

Granted, of course, that I know you do not like Paul ..so I do not expect what he noted to be taken seriously. Nonetheless, scripture notes the same thing in other places as well.

1 John 3:13-15
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

1 John 4:20
If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
1 John 4

1 John 3
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Love One Another

11 This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Samaritans had the Torah, but they were anxious to hear from him how to do it, they were expecting Messiah to come, they were not considered Heathens/Gentiles either. I don't know what you are going on about on those other two..........

John 4 addresses the issue of Samaritans rather well - as they ended up seeing who the Messiah was - and as it was, Jewish people do not think they had the Torah. It's one of the fundamental reasons why they felt didn't think of Samaritans has having any connection to Israel. I don't know what's really difficult to understand on the others (more shared in #11 ) - but oh well. Moving on..

Again, I see another 'Christianism', "don't judge" but Yeshua never said that, had he done so he would be speaking against Torah.

No offense - but I another "Hebrew Roots" ideology (as is often done when saying "Well that's just Christian - but the Torah says!!" )..for there's no avoiding what Yeshua made plain on judging - as even the Torah noted that when it comes to hypocrisy, partiality ands self-righteousness.

yedida · Jan 16, 2013

Lulav said:
Here's another example which I'm sure will cause an uproar, Everyone's heard of 'Mother Theresa' who worn what looked like a tallit upon her head, and served in India with the poor and dying, ceaselessly, she must be on the top of the list, right? She is the epitome of 'loving your neighbor' and that's all you need, right, as the Beatles beat into the minds of millions, all you need is love. .......... sadly I even heard a Jewish Rabbi sing this from the pulpit..............anyway, did you know that she taught all gods are the same?

Here are a couple of quotes

“There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic."

“Of course I convert. I convert you to be a better Hindu or a better Muslim or a better Protestant. Once you’ve found God, it’s up to you to decide how to worship him”
(“Mother Teresa Touched Other Faiths,” AP, Sept. 7, 1997).

Oh my, I hadn't heard these things. But that's the way the RCC is leaning now, or so I've heard, and if it came from the pope, well, you know what they say.......Not!! But, seriously, I hadn't heard this of her, sad really.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 16, 2013

visionary said:
Writing verbose arguments like a good lawyer... but it reminds me of Yeshua rebuttal... blocking the WAY and not entering yourself is not a good idea.
.

As said before, it's cute what you note..but Ad-homimen is not a good way of addressing scripture or truth - or nor does it show ability to really focus on the topic/content of what's said rather than a poster (as you tend to do when unable to address something squarely).

Minus the fact that you already know personal discussion of posters ISN'T allowed (and thus, you should know better than to attempt it), there are no excuses on your parts in light of numerous others easily able to comprehend things quickly/not even thinking "verbose" as an issue of being unable to understand - but where you tend to lean makes a difference in whether you get something...or make room to avoid owing up to it.

Claiming "verbose" doesn't equate to addressing the scriptures (and it wouldn't hold a candle in the time of Yeshua, who often did the same when spole and so did the scribes). It also doesn't hold any type of weight in light of your repeated examples. Much has already been shared briefly and short - but again, the fact that one didn't see fit to note that shows (IMHO) over-generalization. The same thing was attempted by yourself in another thread (as seen here in #26 ) when you claimed you try to be brief, bring up one example if you deem it necessary to show, someone who can say it better than yourself, the position you wish to make.

And as said to you before, you've already had multiple times you've brought up numerous examples/quoted entire articles in a string of postings - your thread on "Messianic History" being one amongst many other examples of that. In brief example:

Originally Posted by visionary

For historical documents of the existance the Messianic type of believers we often have to look within "heresy" documents written at that time.

Inquisicion

CONCORDIAS
HECHAS, Y FIRMADAS
entre la jurisdicion Real, y
el Santo Oficio de la

Inquisicion.
DECLARATIONS, Acts and Edicts of the royal Jurisdiction, and the Holy Office of the Inquisition
Valencia, 1568 (collection of the Author).

EDICT OF FAITH

"We Doctor Andres de Palacio, Inquisitor against the heresy and apostolic perversity in the city and kingdom of Valencia, etc.

"To all faithful Christians, both men and women, chaplains, friars and priests of every condition, quality and degree; whose attention to this will result in salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ, the true salvation; who are aware that, by means of other edicts and sentences of the Reverend inquisitors, our predecessors, they were warned to appear before them, within a given period, and declare and manifest the things which they had seen, known, and heard tell of any person or persons, either alive or dead, who had said or done anything against the Holy Catholic Faith; cultivated and observed the law of Moses or the Mohammedan sect, or the rites and ceremonies of the same; or perpetrated diverse crimes of heresy; observing Friday evenings and Saturdays; changing into clean personal linen on Saturdays and wearing better clothes than on other days; preparing on Fridays the food for Saturdays, in stewing pans on a small fire; who do not work on Friday evenings and Saturdays as on other days; who kindle lights in clean lamps with new wicks, on Friday evenings; place clean linen on the beds and clean napkins on the table; celebrate the festival of unleavened bread, eat unleavened bread and celery and bitter herbs; observe the fast of pardon (Day of Atonement) when they do not eat all day until the evening after star-rise, when they pardon one another and break their fast; and in the same manner observe the fasts of Queen Esther, of tissabav, and rosessena; who say prayers according to the law of Moses, standing up before the wall, swaying back and forth, and taking a few steps backwards; who give money for oil for the Jewish temple or other secret place of worship; who slaughter poultry according to the Judaic law, and refrain from eating sheep or any other animal which is trefa; who do not wish to eat salt pork, hares, rabbits, snails, or fish that have not scales; who bathe the bodies of their dead and bury them in virgin soil according to the Jewish custom; who, in the house of mourning do not eat meat but fish and hard-boiled eggs, seated at low tables; who separate a morsel of dough when baking and throw it on the fire; who become, or know of others who become circumcised; who invoke demons, and give to them the honour that is due to God; who say that the law of Moses is good and can bring about their salvation; who perform many other rites and ceremonies of the same; who say that our Lord Jesus Christ was not the true Messiah promised in Scripture, nor the true God nor son of God; who deny that he died to save the human race; deny the resurrection and his ascension to heaven; and say that our Lady the Virgin Mary was not the mother of God or a virgin before the nativity and after; who say and affirm many other heretical errors; who state that what they had confessed before the inquisitors was not the truth; who remove their penitential robes and neither remain in the prison nor observe she penance imposed upon them; who say scandalous things against our holy Catholic Faith and against the officials of the Inquisition; or who influence any infidel who might have been drawn towards Catholicism to refrain from converting; who assert that the Holy Sacrament of the altar is not the true body and blood of Jesus Christ our Redeemer, and that God cannot be omnipresent; or any priest holding this damnable opinion, who recites and celebrates the mass, not saying the holy words of the consecration; saying and believing that the law of Mahomet and its rites and ceremonies are good and can bring about their salvation; who affirm that life is but birth and death, and that there is no paradise and no hell; and state that to practise usury is not a sin; if any man whose wife still lives, marries again, or any woman remarries in the lifetime of her first husband; if any know of those who keep Jewish customs, and name their children on the seventh night after their birth and with silver and gold upon a table, pleasurably observe the Jewish ceremony; and if any know that when somebody dies, they place a cup of water and a lighted candle and some napkins where the deceased died, and for some days, do not enter there; if any know of the effort of a Jew or convert, secretly to preach the law of Moses and convert others to this creed, teaching the ceremonies belonging to the same, giving information as to the dates of festivals and fasts, teaching Jewish prayers; if any know of anyone who attempts to become a Jew, or being Christian walks abroad in the costume of a Jew; if any know of anyone, converted or otherwise, who orders that his dress shall he made of canvas and not of linen, as the good Jews do; if any know of those who, when their children kiss their hands, place their hands on the childrens heads without making the Sign (of the Cross); or who, after dinner or supper, bless the wine and pass is to everyone at the table, which blessing is called the veraha; if any know that in any house, people congregate for the purpose of carrying on religious services, or read out of bibles of the vernacular or perform other Judaic ceremonies, and if any know that when someone is about to set out on a journey, certain words of the law of Moses are spoken to him, and a hand placed on his head without making the Sign (of the Cross). And if any know of anyone who has professed the Mosaic creed, or awaited the coming of the Messiah, saying that our Redeemer and Saviour Jesus Christ was not come and that now Elijah was to come and take them to the promised land; and if any know that any person had pretended to go into a trance and wandered in heaven and that an angel had conducted him over green fields and told him that was the promised land which was being saved for all converts whom Elijah was to redeem from the captivity in which they lived; and if any know that any person or persons be children or grandchildren of the condemned, and being disqualified, should make use of public office, or bear arms or wear silk and fine cloth, or ornament their costumes with gold, silver, pearls or other precious stones or coral, or make use of any other thing which they are forbidden and disqualified to have; and if any know that any persons have or possessed any confiscated goods, furniture, money, gold, silver, or other jewels belonging to those condemned for heresy, which should be brought before the receiver of goods confiscated for the crime of heresy. All these things, having been seen, heard or known, you, the above-mentioned faithful Christians, have, with obstinate hearts, refused to declare and manifest, greatly to the burden and prejudice of your souls; thinking that you were absolved by the bulls and indulgences issued by our holy father, and by promises and donations which you had made, for which you have incurred the sentence of excommunication and other grave penalties under statutory law; and thus you may be proceeded against as those who have suffered excommunication and as abettors of heretics, in various ways; but, wishing so act with benevolence, and in order that your souls may not be lost, since our Lord does not wish the death of the sinner but his reformation and life; by these presents, we remove and suspend the censure promulgated by the said former inquisitors against you, so long as you observe and comply with the terms of this our edict, by which we require, exhort and order you, in virtue of the holy obedience, and under penalty of complete excommunication, within nine days from the time that the present edict shall have been read to you, or made known to you in whatsoever manner, to state all that you know, have seen, heard, or heard tell in any manner whatsoever, of the things and ceremonies above-mentioned, and to appear before us personally to declare and manifest what you have seen, heard, or heard tell secretly, without having spoken previously with any other person, or borne false witness against anyone. Otherwise, the period having passed, the canonical admonitions having been repeated in accordance with the law, steps will be taken so give out and promulgate sentence of excommunication against you, in and by these documents; and through such excommunication, we order that you be publicly denounced; and if, after a further period of nine days, you should persist in your rebellion and excommunication, you shall be excommunicated, anathematised, cursed, segregated, and separated as an associate of the devil, from union with and inclusion in the holy Mother-Church, and the sacraments of the same. And we order the vicars, rectors, chaplains, and sacristans and any other religious or ecclesiastical persons to regard and treat the above-mentioned as excommunicated and accursed for having incurred the wrath and indignation of Almighty God, and of the glorious Virgin Mary, His Mother, and of the beatified apostles Saint Peter and Saint Paul, and all the saints of the celestial Court; and upon such rebels and disobedient ones who would hide the truth regarding the above-mentioned things, be all the plagues and maledictions which befell and descended upon King Pharaoh and his host for not having obeyed the divine commandments; and the same sentence of divine excommunication encompass them as it encompassed the people of Sodom and Gomorrah who all perished in flames; and of Athan and Abiron who were swallowed up into the earth for the great delinquencies and sins which they committed in disobedience and rebellion against our Lord God; and may they be accursed in eating and drinking, in waking and sleeping, in coming and going. . .

More was done the same in #2 when discussing the lost tribes - and again, plenty others. Thus again, you protest too much if talking on "verbose" but keeping quiet where you gave allowance for yourself elsewhere.

And for each/every instance you've suddenly become able to read multiple other verbose postings if they agree with your views, IMHO, it is a matter of inaccurate scales - something the Lord said he did not like

visionary · Jan 16, 2013

Gxg (G²);62194339 said:
As said before, it's cute what you note..but Ad-homimen is not a good way of addressing scripture or truth - as claiming "verbose" doesn't equate to addressing the scriptures (and it wouldn't hold a candle in the time of Yeshua, who often did the same when spole and so did the scribes). It also doesn't hold any type of weight in light of your repeated examples. Much has already been shared briefly and short - but again, the fact that one didn't see fit to note that shows (IMHO) over-generalization. The same thing was attempted by yourself in another thread (as seen here in #26 ) when you claimed you try to be brief, bring up one example if you deem it necessary to show, someone who can say it better than yourself, the position you wish to make.

And as said to you before, you've already had multiple times you've brought up numerous examples/quoted entire articles in a string of postings - your thread on "Messianic History" being one amongst many other examples of that. In brief example:

More was done the same in #2 when discussing the lost tribes - and again, plenty others. Thus again, you protest too much if talking on "verbose" but keeping quiet where you gave allowance for yourself elsewhere.

And for each/every instance you've suddenly become able to read multiple other verbose postings if they agree with your views, IMHO, it is a matter of inaccurate scales - something the Lord said he did not like

That is an excellent example of the keeping the faith, not like RCC, but like a Jew and still believing in Yeshua....Thank you for bringing it forward.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 16, 2013

visionary said:
That is an excellent example of the keeping the faith, not like RCC,

Actually, it's an excellent example of where you condone being verbose (one amongst many since you did the same in #2 when discussing the lost tribes - and again, plenty othe.) - and an example of what happens when people allow partiality to influence their decisions even without realizing it. Personally, I don't have a problem reading what you write or put up since it's not difficult reading that which is a generally less than a typical highschool essay - and if it's relevant detail/information, truth is truth and I'll study it

Apart from that, as it is, RCC have done much better in keeping the faith than others. Of course, when one has a bad understanding of the Body of Messiah, it's easy to dismiss entire parts of it while celebrating where you're at as the sum of it

visionary · Jan 16, 2013

Gxg (G²);62194359 said:
Actually, it's an excellent example of where you condone being verbose (one amongst many) - and an example of what happens when people allow partiality to influence their decisions even without realizing it. As it is, RCC have done much better in keeping the faith than others. Of course, when one has a bad understanding of the Body of Messiah, it's easy to dismiss entire parts of it while celebrating where you're at as the sum of it

Messianic History thread was a documentation of evidence. Since Messianic History thread was not a thread of responses, it is not even equal to this conversational thread.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 16, 2013

Originally Posted by Lulav

That is the commandment he was expanding upon when he said in John 7:

Rigtheous judgement (as John 7 notes) isn't the same as the kind of judgement Yeshua noted in Matthew 7 when it came to inconsistent judging - as in applying one standard to others while a differing one to yourself. That again is the issue behind judging other servants, claiming you're superior than them in one area/need them to be like you (even though you make allowances in other areas ) and condoning hypocrisy.

Yeshua was not forbidding judgment completely anymore than the Torah did - but He did make a point on what happens when you judge based on partiality/inaccuracy and said that's something the Lord hated. made that apparent when He then said, "For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you" (Matthew 7:2). Basically, the Lord is saying we should not judge others with a measure of judgment we would not want for ourselves. should note that Jesus did not forbid judging altogether. In the illustration of the mote and beam, one should note that He said we should take care of self first and then take care of our brother. After we have honestly examined ourselves, it is then acceptable to note the fault of another. From this context - if read in its entirety - we can see that what Jesus was forbidding was unrighteous judgment, not all judging. In fact, we find that on another occasion Jesus said, "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment" (John 7:24) . Yeshua neither forbade nor exhorted His disciples to get involved in making judgments, but clearly taught that whatever judgments they did make had to be righteous judgments; their judgment was to be neither hypocritical nor unrighteous. But what is "righteous judgment?" If we are called upon to make judgments or if we are in situations where judgment is demanded, how is it to be done so it meets the definition of "righteous"? When we are called upon by the circumstances of any given situation to make a judgment about spiritual matters, the judgment we make cannot be based on our own standards. Personal opinion has no part in spiritual matters and all opinion is equally useless. The standard by which we will be judged is the words of Yeshua (John 12:47,48). A policemen who pulls you over cannot write you a ticket because he personally thought you should get one; he speaks and acts by the authority of the laws of the land in which he lives and works; in the same sense, we cannot impose our personal judgments on others, but must speak "as one who speaks oracles of God" (I Peter 4:11).

Moreover, we cannot make inconsistent judgments or judge with partiality; by that, I mean we cannot judge one more strictly than another when both are guilty of the same error. In order for judgment to be called "righteous," it must, of necessity, be fair and just. Of course, circumstances must be considered, but fairness must be the basic foundation of all judgment. Brethren who rightly condemn those who teach error must be willing to condemn their friends who teach error, too. When we apply a harsher judgment on one because he is not in our 'circle' of friends or judge another more leniently because he is, then we have judged with unrighteous ( hypocritical ) judgment.

Furthermore, if we must judge, we should judge with mercy, for "judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy" (James 2:13) - and MERCY was something Yeshua often talked on at various points ( Hosea 6:5-7 Matthew 9:12-14 / Matthew 9/ Matthew 12:6-8/ Matthew 12 ). This goes back to the earlier statement of Yeshua that reminds us we will be judged with the same measure of judgment we have used on others (cf. Matthew 7:2). Although I cannot speak for you, but I am positive that we will all desire mercy when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Originally Posted by Lulav

The whole law is how Yeshua explained it, it is not just about 'love' but what that entails.

And all of that was solved in the issue of love for others.

yedida said:
I never knew that keeping kosher (or observing Torah, obeying God's commands) had anything to do with our understanding of them at all. I thought we were to keep them and obey them because He commanded us to do so.

Obediance also required understanding of all that God said on the matter. One of the basic reasons behind why the entire Torah/God's instructions were read before the Hebrews collectively - out loud and at every point (as with Deuteronomy 27-32 and Nehemiah 8-12 - so that no one would be without excuse nor would others condemn others for not obeying a part of it that was never given to them to begin with since the Lord took that seriously)

Someone looking at Leviticus 11 on Food laws (as a Gentile) and saying "Well I'm obeying it and God said all had to keep it!!!!" doesn't equate to observing Torah as God commanded...as He also noted directly where the Gentile in the land were allowed to eat foods the Hebrews could not - and He made clear later on how he related to Gentiles differently in many places than the Jews.

I quite agree with the separation idea, I thought it was very insightful, so I'd be curious to know all of those others in Judaism who say this as well. I haven't heard it by so many, "much of Judaism," that's impressive! Who are they and what are their works where I can read what they've said about it.

That has already been noted on several occasions - if actually interested. Hiliel is one of the most prominent and there are various others outside of that as well. Contra has shared more on the issue (here and on MD) - and he'd be a good source to talk to. Qnts2 as well.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 16, 2013

visionary said:
Messianic History thread was a documentation of evidence. Since Messianic History thread was not a thread of responses, it is not even equal to this conversational thread.

Doesn't matter (and as it is, it's already inaccurate since others gave responses ) - as verbose is verbose, regardless of the subject. And as said before, there have been dozens of other examples - including the repeated times you commented on things exceedingly long (and that folks had to note ahead of time) and had no issue (#1, #2, #3, #4, #18 #25, #43 , #44 , #45 , #47 #48 ). If one can remain "mute" there, then there's no reason to do so here. That's either a matter of innocent oversight - or willful neglection of details because it puts you in the same boat as you try to place others....and the only way to avoid that is to resort to partiality in assessments - something the Lord said plainly He never liked (Deuteronomy 1:17, Deuteronomy 16:19, Proverbs 11:1, Proverbs 20:23, Micah 6:11, James 3:16-18 )

There are no excuses except one doesn't want to deal with what they don't wish to address - but finds it easier to resort to ad-hominem as if it deals with scripture/concept. Doesn't fly and you should know better, v As it is, it's already bad enough you had to resort (again) to trying personal commentary instead of actually addressing scripture - and people on a high school level of work have done better with that multiple times.

mishkan · Jan 16, 2013

macher said:
So are you saying that Messianic Judaism is the real deal denomination and everyone else is....

Most assuredly, Messianic Judaism is the "real deal" (which is not to say that every person claiming an MJ "scroll" has everything correct). By definition, the community of Yeshua, as defined in the Messianic Writings, is a Judaism, as he rules the planet according to Torah from his throne in Zion.

If one is "committed" to that Yeshua--the King of Israel--then one has started at the right place, and will end at the right place.

Everyone else? I don't think it is our place to judge. I just do my best to strip away the veneer that has been used to obscure the simple message that is written in the Bible. I'm a big believer in the K.I.S.S methodology.

visionary · Jan 16, 2013

Gxg (G²);62194411 said:
Doesn't matter - as verbose is verbose, regardless of the subject. And as said before, there have been dozens of other examples - including the repeated times you commented on things exceedingly long (and that folks had to note ahead of time) and had no issue.

There are no excuses except one doesn't want to deal with what they don't wish to address - but finds it easier to resort to ad-hominem as if it deals with scripture/concept. Doesn't fly, v

Feel better now?

Gxg (G²) · Jan 16, 2013

visionary said:
Feel better now?

Haven't changed at all, actually It's just hilarious seeing things not line up and people unable to see it - but such is life.

Yahudim · Jan 16, 2013

Gxg (G²);62194311 said:
Not according to Yeshua - who worked with Gentiles all the time - and never asked or required that they had to be involved in the Mosaic Covenant for sanctification or justification before the Lord anymore than it was with Noah. This is is basic to Judaic thought and what the School of Hilel taught verbatim repeateldy - and what Yeshua emphasized, in addition to noting "Judge not lest you be judged."

And yet you ignore that His message was to the Jews FIRST. It is not like He did not command it for the goyim. In fact He did just that (instruct that His Torah be taken to the nations) after giving the Jews a chance to accept His ministry FIRST.

What did Messiah instruct His talmidim to do?
After He preached to the Jews?
After He was rejected by the Jews?
After He was persecuted by the Jews?
After He was turned over to the Romans for execution by the Jews?
After He was buried?
After He was resurrected?
After He appeared to His talmidim?
After He appeared to the multitudes?

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you...

Y'shua IS Torah. He was the epitome of Torah observant. That is what He taught His talmidim to be - correctly observant. So explain to me why would He instruct His talmidim to instruct 'all nations' (goyim) to observe 'all things' that He commanded (Torah)?
Because Torah was optional for goyim?
Or because all those that believe on Him and follow Torah become adopted into His family and grafted into Israel - just like His talmidim taught?

mishkan · Jan 16, 2013

yedida said:
That's what I thought he was saying too!

You guys are just too good! You caught my meaning without any help at all.

Yahudim · Jan 16, 2013

By the way, I followed the links you posted in http://www.christianforums.com/t7712965-7/#post62193974 and many of them link to discussions and teachings of Torah non-observance. Since this is banned by the SoP, I thought I would let you know. I wouldn't want you to get in trouble.

The remark in that post, "and simply don't like what you get (Proverbs 14:6)", is probably against the rules too. It certainly feels like a personal put down. I'm not feeling the love you say you're giving, G.

Pro 14:6 "A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth."

Maybe you should take a break until you feel better. We can pick this up later if you like.

Commandments for Gentiles?

Y'shua HaMoshiach Messianic

Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

There's room for YOU in the Mishkan!

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Y'shua HaMoshiach Messianic

There's room for YOU in the Mishkan!

Y'shua HaMoshiach Messianic

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