Does Yeshua accept those who might be ignorant of a lot of things but are committed to Him?
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
And christians are not to be separated? I think anyone who calls themselves by the name of the God of Israel should obey the laws of the God of Israel.
Does Yeshua accept those who might be ignorant of a lot of things but are committed to Him?
Does Yeshua accept those who might be ignorant of a lot of things but are committed to Him?
Does Yeshua accept those who might be ignorant of a lot of things but are committed to Him?
Excellent point. As I wrote in response to Toby Janicki's article: Thats a Clown Question, Bro!;That's not quite an even-handed question.
There is a difference between ignorance, which can be easily cured, and a theological posture that declares Torah to be abrogated.
When we say someone is "committed to him", what we are really saying is that they follow the version of Yeshua that has been presented to them. If they are taught to follow a blue-eyed, blond-haired Scandinavian fellow who is so universalistic that he has no relationship to israel or the Torah... then they might as well not bother.
(That is only an illustration, BTW. The same is true, no matter how we imagine him--if he isn't a Torah observant Jewish sage, then the image is false.)
Y'shua IS Torah. He was the epitome of Torah observant. That is what He taught His talmidim to be - correctly observant. So explain to me why would He instruct His talmidim to instruct 'all nations' (goyim) to observe 'all things' that He commanded (Torah)? Because Torah was optional for goyim (as so many of you seem to think) or because all those that believe on Him and follow Torah become adopted into His family and grafted into Israel?
That's not quite an even-handed question.
There is a difference between ignorance, which can be easily cured, and a theological posture that declares Torah to be abrogated.
When we say someone is "committed to him", what we are really saying is that they follow the version of Yeshua that has been presented to them. If they are taught to follow a blue-eyed, blond-haired Scandinavian fellow who is so universalistic that he has no relationship to israel or the Torah... then they might as well not bother.
(That is only an illustration, BTW. The same is true, no matter how we imagine him--if he isn't a Torah observant Jewish sage, then the image is false.)
it is progressive... keep up with the light... This is a movement not a denomination... We are a people called by God to move forward in the light of the feasts, the sabbath, the lifestyle of Him, and have a love for His people... it is all good news.So are you saying that Messianic Judaism is the real deal denomination and everyone else is....
That's a good question to consider - and on the issue, it is something that impacts everyone since the reality is that all are ignorant of something, on one level or another. It's why the scriptures note repeatedly the danger of judging - as in "I do more than you do!!!" and procedding to claim others are insufficient followers of Messiah because they are not on a level you approve of...despite the fact that you may have areas where you either are unaware of what you do being off - or are inconsistent with some.Does Yeshua accept those who might be ignorant of a lot of things but are committed to Him?
Was that your take away? Really? 'Cause that's not what I read.So are you saying that Messianic Judaism is the real deal denomination and everyone else is....
Well this seems a little misleading.Gxg said:In Judaism, one can be a good Jew and not adopt the most obvious forms of observance- eg. a nominal modern Orthodox who is deeply involved in charity can be a good Jew whereas a Hasid who cheats on his taxes but never misses a minyan or a shiur may not be. From what I've studied in the scriptures, it does not seem to have ever been the case that Gentiles needed to keep all 613 laws - nor was it ever the case that those often denoucning Gentiles for not doing so come remotely close to keeping half of them.
Was that your take away? Really? 'Cause that's not what I read.
I think that what Mishkan is saying is that Messiah Y'shua of scripture is about as Orthodox and Torah observant a Jewish Rabbi as you will ever find and that He sent His talmidim to 'all nations' (goyim) with the message of Torah observance.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you...
I'm pretty sure that all He taught was Torah. So my take away would be - if anyone's doctrine does not accurately reflect who Y'shua was (and is) and what He commanded, then they might just be deceiving themselves.
excellent analogy!There are laws regarding unintentional, unknown sin which I'm sure you're well aware of so I won't go into them. Now, does ignorance equal rebellion?
In other words: Your 17 year old son has learned how important it is to set aside time each day to devote that little bit of extra study time for the subject that is not exactly on his "favorites" list so he can achieve not just a passing grade but a really good grade because you desire this of him and he loves you. Your little 6 year old doesn't have the maturity yet to understand the importance of good grades or what's required to achieve them even though he, too, loves you dearly. They have both heard all of their lives about being good students and studying hard. One has incorporated this into his life, one has not - but they both love you more than anything. Is it enough for right now? Do you love the one more? Or do you understand that because the little one does love you with his whole heart, he will learn as he grows because he wants his love for you to reflect in what he does in life?
No question about it, that is what counts.I hope so. We are all ignorant of some things. Anyone who thinks they have all the answers is lying to themselves. The question is not what do we know, it is what are we doing with what we know?
His disciples also taught Torah as it was to be interpreted. There is no getting around the bottom line fact that Yeshua championed a Samaritan as keeping the Spirit of Torah by helping their neighbors in need in contrast to the most observant people ever such as the Priest and Levite (Luke 10:25-39) - something the rabbis often noted of Him and Hillel as a matter of making God's commands universal in simplicity...and echoed by the Apostles repeatedly when noting love fulfills the Law. It is misleading to talk on Observance and avoid where Yeshua never did have a mindset of Gentiles keeping all things asked of the Hebrews - be it with the Samaritan, or the Samaritan Woman/her community when it came to Evangelism (John 4), or the Demonized man in Mark 5 ...the Roman Centurion who had greater faith than all in Israel and a host of others.Well this seems a little misleading.
"In Judaism, one can be a good Jew and not adopt the most obvious forms of observance" might or might not be accurate, but this certainly wasn't and isn't the case for Y'shua's disciples. Y'shua taught correct Torah observance.
Already shared before - some of that referenced in the thread/referenced for other occassions. Not going to share again if it cannot be looked up first.who would that be? Did you have anyone special in mind?
Already clarified earlier as it was acknowledged by several - for it has never been said that Torah was not to be kept and it is simplistic to assume such when it is noted that not all aspects of it were ever applicable to all groups or that no one claiming to be more "observant" than others (and thus judging) has any right to do so since the scriptures note repeatedly we're not to judge/not one is perfect at any point.....and as said in the post, we're given explict commands not to judge our neighbors/where they're at in observance.tone of your post suggest that Torah cannot be kept properly, so why try? Is this what you are trying to convey?
Not according to God's law, T. Judaism has identified 613 commandments in the Torah or first five books of the Bible. They are called mitzvoth or good deeds. 365 of them, the number of days in the solar year, are prohibitive in nature. That is, they describe actions we are not to take. The other 248, the number of organs and limbs in a human body according to the Rabbis, are performative in nature. That is, they describe actions we are to take. These two numbers are interpreted to mean that man should be practicing these commands every day of the year. A good example of each type of commandment can be found in Lev 19:35 and 36. Lev 19 has many of the 613 commands in its versesno one is required to keep all 613.
I agree. Just as it is misleading to suggest that goyim (non-believers) remain goyim when they came to be believers - are not adopted into the covenant (Torah) of Israel. Or to suggest that because Torah isn't easy enough, then the parts that apply to them can be ignored or only kept in part.Gxg (G²);62193825 said:His disciples also taught Torah as it was to be interpreted. There is no getting around the bottom line fact that Yeshua championed a Samaritan as keeping the Spirit of Torah by helping their neighbors in need in contrast to the most observant people ever such as the Priest and Levite (Luke 10:25-39) - something the rabbis often noted of Him and Hillel as a matter of making God's commands universal in simplicity...and echoed by the Apostles repeatedly when noting love fulfills the Law. It is misleading to talk on Observance and avoid where Yeshua never did have a mindset of Gentiles keeping all things asked of the Hebrews - be it with the Samaritan, or the Samaritan Woman/her community when it came to Evangelism (John 4), or the Demonized man in Mark 5 ...the Roman Centurion who had greater faith than all in Israel and a host of others.
Well this is misleading too. Did women keep command written for the Levitical priesthood? Did men have to keep commands intended for women? Were merchants commanded to keep the instructions to farmers? No. See for yourself:Gxg (G²);62193825 said:Not according to God's law, T - as it was a TOTAL covenant...where if one breaks one part of it, ALL are broken. There's no escaping that in scripture.
Find me someone on this earth who does it all both the girl and boy's part, and that of the levite's service work in the temple, etc.. What all people can do is that which God requires them to do... and in doing that it is a total committment to His Covenant.Gxg (G²);62193825 said:His disciples also taught Torah as it was to be interpreted. There is no getting around the bottom line fact that Yeshua championed a Samaritan as keeping the Spirit of Torah by helping their neighbors in need in contrast to the most observant people ever such as the Priest and Levite (Luke 10:25-39) - something the rabbis often noted of Him and Hillel as a matter of making God's commands universal in simplicity...and echoed by the Apostles repeatedly when noting love fulfills the Law. It is misleading to talk on Observance and avoid where Yeshua never did have a mindset of Gentiles keeping all things asked of the Hebrews - be it with the Samaritan, or the Samaritan Woman/her community when it came to Evangelism (John 4), or the Demonized man in Mark 5 ...the Roman Centurion who had greater faith than all in Israel and a host of others.
Not according to God's law, T - as it was a TOTAL covenant...where if one breaks one part of it, ALL are broken. There's no escaping that in scripture.
Gentiles never ceased being Gentiles - nor were they deemed Jews when they came to believers. That was repeatedly expressed in early Judaic thought - and goes to the issue of distinction which the apostles/early body of believers worked out. The hardest thing to do is to actually love someone - and that is why Yeshua often pointed it out and emphasized it when others tried to confront Him on what the GREATEST of commandments were. The same goes for the issue of noting where God - in multiple versions of what Torah was for people (from the time of Adam to the time of Noah to the time of Moses and Post-Moses since it didn't end there) - had the right to say what He did or didn't wish of others. He always had it in His plan to sanctify believers by faith (as Abraham was justified before circumcision - Romans 4) - and His Spirit was what made the difference...given to all believers.Just as it is misleading to suggest that goyim (non-believers) remain goyim when they came to be believers - are not adopted into the covenant (Torah) of Israel. Or to suggest that because Torah isn't easy enough, then the parts that apply to them can be ignored or only kept in part.
Only "misleading" when one intentionally divorces what was said from the context. For it was already made plain earlier and in multiple discussions for years where not all laws were made for other people....and yet anyone claiming "I keep ALL the Law more than others'" lies to themselves.Well this is misleading too
Did women keep command written for the Levitical priesthood? Did men have to keep commands intended for women? Were merchants commanded to keep the instructions to farmers? No. See for yourself
And what He required - based EXPLICLTY on what Yeshua noted and the apostles - is to love one another. That is what He gave us, in agreement with what the Lord was seeking to bring into focus many times with His Covenant. And His covenant is with other elements now that we have HIS Spirit.Find me someone on this earth who does it all both the girl and boy's part, and that of the levite's service work in the temple, etc.. What all people can do is that which God requires them to do... .
and in doing that it is a total committment to His Covenant
Incorrect - and that has been noted by several repeatedly. You are are Gentile whether you like it or notIn Torah, goyim are ALWAYS non-believers, gerim are proselytes (converts if you like).
Yep - and that was covered in several discussions in-depth.but the adopted are Israel.
One can deal with what was already given rather than asking for more while avoiding what's given. Until then, there is no discussion since you have already been told on the matter and simply don't like what you get (Proverbs 14:6). No one really cares to deal with that - and as said before, this was already addressed on a couple of occassions...the most recent being discussion on the Body of Israel/Church as well as other discussions ( here, #31 , #44, #69 , #71 , #70 #84 , #117 , #130 , #142 ,#144 , #252 , etc. ).Show me scripture that demonstrates this is wrong
of course... the person who is doing the loving part of neighbors is doing right... but that still does not dismiss this same person from hearing the word and being obedient too it. If this same person who does a great work rescuing girls, but turns a deaf ear to obedience to God commands when he is presented with it, might make it into the kingdom, not because of these righteous deeds but because of the loving motive in his heart.. but alas will still be classified "least" in the kingdom.. for not observing the weightier matters of the law that were brought to his attention. God can wink at the parts of this person's life when he didn't know. But when it came to his attention of what God required of him, and he rebelled against His Kingdom's Laws.. he will face the consequences of those actions... in spite of his good deeds with the rescue work.Gxg (G²);62193924 said:Gentiles never ceased being Gentiles - nor were they deemed Jews when they came to believers. That was repeatedly expressed in early Judaic thought - and goes to the issue of distinction which the apostles/early body of believers worked out. The hardest thing to do is to actually love someone - and that is why Yeshua often pointed it out and emphasized it when others tried to confront Him on what the GREATEST of commandments were. The same goes for the issue of noting where God - in multiple versions of what Torah was for people (from the time of Adam to the time of Noah to the time of Moses and Post-Moses since it didn't end there) - had the right to say what He did or didn't wish of others. He always had it in His plan to sanctify believers by faith (as Abraham was justified before circumcision - Romans 4) - and His Spirit was what made the difference...given to all believers.
The person in India rescuing girls caught in human trafficking/child brides is far more observant than someone claiming Observance due to keeping what they deem to be kosher - and yet not loving others as the scriptures repeatedly commanded - and the Lord warned on that on several occassions
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?