Colossians 1:23

[2Timothy2]

Colossians 1:23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Has anyone ever seen this used in order to claim that the entire population of the world heard the Gospel, prior to the close of the 1st century? Doesn't that seem to be rather shallow reading of this text?

 

[Dad Ernie]

Colossians 1:23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Has anyone ever seen this used in order to claim that the entire population of the world heard the Gospel, prior to the close of the 1st century? Doesn't that seem to be rather shallow reading of this text?

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

3956 pas {pas}
including all the forms of declension; TDNT - 5:886,795; adj
AV - all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31,
everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11,
no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6,
whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2,
any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26; 1243
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,
everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
++++
... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after
Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."
Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God,
little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does
the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are
used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very
rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are
generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts
-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not
restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...
C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption

So the word "every", as with the word "all" in the Greek DOES NOT MEAN every single one as applied to the "collective", but "some of each in a particular category".

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[daveleau]

I have heard this verse used to support "natural theology", which is the idea that each person on earth receives the general revelation of God through viewing His Creation. The special revelation, of course, is Scripture. I have not heard this used to say that everyone had heard the full Gospel, ie special revelation.

 

[Edial]

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

3956 pas {pas}
including all the forms of declension; TDNT - 5:886,795; adj
AV - all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31,
everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11,
no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6,
whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2,
any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26; 1243
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,
everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
++++
... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after
Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."
Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God,
little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does
the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are
used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very
rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are
generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts
-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not
restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...
C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption

So the word "every", as with the word "all" in the Greek DOES NOT MEAN every single one as applied to the "collective", but "some of each in a particular category".

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

So in this case, how is it applied as "some of each in a particular category"?

Ed

 

[Edial]

Colossians 1:23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Has anyone ever seen this used in order to claim that the entire population of the world heard the Gospel, prior to the close of the 1st century? Doesn't that seem to be rather shallow reading of this text?

Yes, I heard it. The preacher clearly did not imply that they all heard the gospel preached, but that they understood it though the revelation of the nature, I believe.
I does make sense, but it can definitely lead to the uncharted terrotory.

Ed

 

[Dad Ernie]

So in this case, how is it applied as "some of each in a particular category"?

Greetings Edial,

Okay, say that I went out to preach to the ALL of the United States and in each state I went to the biggest city and preached from the largest hall there and my voice was carried over radio and I was on TV.

I would then move on to the next big city. When I had finished all 52 cities, I could say that I had preached to "pas" (all) the United States. Yet was that every person? Every city? Of course not.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[Edial]

Greetings Edial,

Okay, say that I went out to preach to the ALL of the United States and in each state I went to the biggest city and preached from the largest hall there and my voice was carried over radio and I was on TV.

I would then move on to the next big city. When I had finished all 52 cities, I could say that I had preached to "pas" (all) the United States. Yet was that every person? Every city? Of course not.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

I understand that part. But how is it applied to the Colossians? Are you saying that the gospel was practically preached some from each group?

 

[filosofer]

So the word "every", as with the word "all" in the Greek DOES NOT MEAN every single one as applied to the "collective", but "some of each in a particular category".

But the determining factor is whether the Greek text uses the definite article with the Greek word PAS/PAN,a nd the placement of that definite article relative to the noun. In other words, it is not enough to say "PAS" is the Greek word, and we adjust to whether this context means "all of them" or "every kind of them" based on our theology. Rather, we examine the Greek grammar/syntax and let that speak, and then derive our theology from that. In one case "PAS" means every single one of them, and in the other it means representaives of each. This helps not only in the text but in the Gospels regarding Jesus' healing ministry, two special cases: 2 Tim. 3:16 and Romans 11:25.

This is the danger of someone looking at a Greek word, and claiming that "this is what the word means" - rather we have to examine the word in relation to the context.

So, the starting point is to determine whether the definite article in present in the text (it is not). Then we have to examine Greek grammar to check on the implications of how the word is to be understood. Gilderslieve is probably the Greek specialist who has the longest statement about PAS and the definite article (or its lack).

 

[Edial]

But the determining factor is whether the Greek text uses the definite article with the Greek word PAS/PAN,a nd the placement of that definite article relative to the noun. In other words, it is not enough to say "PAS" is the Greek word, and we adjust to whether this context means "all of them" or "every kind of them" based on our theology. Rather, we examine the Greek grammar/syntax and let that speak, and then derive our theology from that. In one case "PAS" means every single one of them, and in the other it means representaives of each. This helps not only in the text but in the Gospels regarding Jesus' healing ministry, two special cases: 2 Tim. 3:16 and Romans 11:25.

This is the danger of someone looking at a Greek word, and claiming that "this is what the word means" - rather we have to examine the word in relation to the context.

So, the starting point is to determine whether the definite article in present in the text (it is not). Then we have to examine Greek grammar to check on the implications of how the word is to be understood. Gilderslieve is probably the Greek specialist who has the longest statement about PAS and the definite article (or its lack).

I actually did a study on the word PAS once when I was dissecting the proposal of the Calvinist preacher that Christ did not die for all.
Thanks for refreshing my memory. What you are saying is absolutely correct.
Thanks,
Ed

 

[Kaitsu]

I would appreciate some opinion on my own thoughts concerning the possible meaning of Paul's statement that the gospel "has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven".

I certainly don't claim this to be any kind of truth or backed up by other Scripture, only that it makes some kind of sense to me....

The whole passage in Col 1:15-23 is a proclamation of Jesus' supremacy over literally everything: everything was created by and for him; in him all things hold together; he is head of the church; God has his fullness dwell in him; and through him all things were to be reconciled to him.

In other words, Paul starts by addressing Christ's universality and his plan to draw all things to him - and he then continues that theme by describing the gospel as "proclaimed to every creature under heaven". But then Paul also describes himself as a servant and (elsewhere) a minister of that same gospel, which suggests that there is still work to be done in spreading this gospel message.

I ask then, is it not possible that Paul's use of "proclaimed" here does not actually necessarily also include "deliverence" of the gospel? Might the word "proclaimed" here only mean the public declaration of the universal scope of the intended audience of the gospel, but not intending to imply that it has also already been received yet by all? That it has been drawn up, announced, and published - proclaimed - to every creature under heaven, and all that is left is the continuation of its delivery.

This also adds compulsion to the delivery process since, being proclaimed to all under the heavens, it must then be delivered to, and received by, them all.

"By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. Is 45:23

Just some thoughts...

Kaitsu

 

[filosofer]

The whole passage in Col 1:15-23 is a proclamation of Jesus' supremacy over literally everything: everything was created by and for him; in him all things hold together; he is head of the church; God has his fullness dwell in him; and through him all things were to be reconciled to him.

In other words, Paul starts by addressing Christ's universality and his plan to draw all things to him - and he then continues that theme by describing the gospel as "proclaimed to every creature under heaven". But then Paul also describes himself as a servant and (elsewhere) a minister of that same gospel, which suggests that there is still work to be done in spreading this gospel message.

As mentioned above, there is no definite article with PAS in this phrase, therefore, it should be translated "every kind of creature" (not every single individual creature - that would require the definite article).

I ask then, is it not possible that Paul's use of "proclaimed" here does not actually necessarily also include "deliverence" of the gospel? Might the word "proclaimed" here only mean the public declaration of the universal scope of the intended audience of the gospel, but not intending to imply that it has also already been received yet by all? That it has been drawn up, announced, and published - proclaimed - to every creature under heaven, and all that is left is the continuation of its delivery.

No, the "proclamation" includes deliverance of the message - the word entails both aspects.

This also adds compulsion to the delivery process since, being proclaimed to all under the heavens, it must then be delivered to, and received by, them all.

Definitely the urgency is part of the proclamation - and a major part lacking in today's Church. But this understanding does not add to the urgency.

Also, notice that you have added a third component to this scenario: proclamation, deliverance, receiving. In reality there are only two aspects: proclamation and believing. Thus, while the urgency of the Church is proclamation, the work of the Holy Spirit is to use that proclaimed Word to work in peoples' hearts to create faith. But this does not imply that everyone will receive/believe.

 

[Edial]

I would appreciate some opinion on my own thoughts concerning the possible meaning of Paul's statement that the gospel "has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven".

I certainly don't claim this to be any kind of truth or backed up by other Scripture, only that it makes some kind of sense to me....

The whole passage in Col 1:15-23 is a proclamation of Jesus' supremacy over literally everything: everything was created by and for him; in him all things hold together; he is head of the church; God has his fullness dwell in him; and through him all things were to be reconciled to him.

In other words, Paul starts by addressing Christ's universality and his plan to draw all things to him - and he then continues that theme by describing the gospel as "proclaimed to every creature under heaven". But then Paul also describes himself as a servant and (elsewhere) a minister of that same gospel, which suggests that there is still work to be done in spreading this gospel message.

I ask then, is it not possible that Paul's use of "proclaimed" here does not actually necessarily also include "deliverence" of the gospel? Might the word "proclaimed" here only mean the public declaration of the universal scope of the intended audience of the gospel, but not intending to imply that it has also already been received yet by all? That it has been drawn up, announced, and published - proclaimed - to every creature under heaven, and all that is left is the continuation of its delivery.

This also adds compulsion to the delivery process since, being proclaimed to all under the heavens, it must then be delivered to, and received by, them all.

"By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. Is 45:23

Just some thoughts...

Kaitsu

Hello there.
I never heard of and never thought about the distinction between 'proclaimed" and "delivered". This is very interesting.
The Strong's (2784) for the Colossians is the same as preach. In Matthew 24:14 (the gospel preached throughout the world) is the same word.

All creation (earth) fell because of the man. So, through the "man" it will be redeemed. That includes animals and such. Since the creation was "groaning" it is understandable why such a good news will be "published".

I agree with you completely that although the gospel was preached in the Colossians it was not delivered. No one could be saved through such a method of preaching, since no one told them how. (It was a common question among the people on "how to be saved").
It was the proclamation of the "good news" that the salvation is among the men. Now that I think of it, it appears to be a "type" of a John the Baptist, the forerunner. Although John and Christ used the same Greek 2784 as preaching, no one could be saved through John the Baptist.
We "deliver" it, as you put it. We clarify to them on how to be saved.
i really like that distinction. I am going to steal it from you.
Thanks,
Ed

 

[Kaitsu]

Hi Filosofer

Thanks for the comments

I would like to ask you to expand on one point here. First you said that:

"the "proclamation" includes deliverance of the message - the word entails both aspects."

but then you say that:

"But this does not imply that everyone will receive/believe."

Isn't there a contradiction here? Is not delivery and receipt the same thing?

Also, you said that:

"Also, notice that you have added a third component to this scenario: proclamation, deliverance, receiving. In reality there are only two aspects: proclamation and believing. Thus, while the urgency of the Church is proclamation, the work of the Holy Spirit is to use that proclaimed Word to work in peoples' hearts to create faith. But this does not imply that everyone will receive/believe."

I don't think I am adding a third component since I intended "delivery" and "receiving" to be the same thing. Basically I am suggesting that the message has been "posted" to everyone, but it hasn't yet arrived in everyone's "letterbox".

In fact, as you mention it, I think believing is a third component. I don't see how belief is an integral part of a proclamation process. You agree here that some people are aware of the gospel message, and reject it - but regardless of their rejection they have certainly received it - and many have only received it a long time after its original proclamation, which shows a time delay, and therefore a distinction, between announcement and receipt.

My point in quoting Isaiah (although I didn't enlarge on it) was the claim that all mankind will confess the name of God/Jesus. This must surely include those that died before the proclamation that Paul is ministering with. This suggests to me that, whilst the gospel message is the same, it is delivered in many different ways to the dead, the living, and the living still to come. So whilst Paul may only be referring to a sample (PAS) here, in fact the gospel is intended for all people, at least potentially:

"(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe." 1 Tim 4:10

So I am not yet convinced that my "interpretation" is altogether wrong.

Sincere thanks for your thoughts so far, and I look forward to your response to these further queries if it interests you.

Kaitsu

 

[Edial]

Hello there - wrong address.
You got the Edial.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Kaitsu]

Hi Edial

Thanks for your additional information. It still makes sense to me, too.

This was helpful:

The Strong's (2784) for the Colossians is the same as preach. In Matthew 24:14 (the gospel preached throughout the world) is the same word.

And I found this an interesting consideration:

It was the proclamation of the "good news" that the salvation is among the men. Now that I think of it, it appears to be a "type" of a John the Baptist, the forerunner. Although John and Christ used the same Greek 2784 as preaching, no one could be saved through John the Baptist.

I don't generally travel too far along speculative or interpretive routes (I prefer to accept ignorance than force an answer to things I don't yet understand), but in this case, I don't think the matter is particularly divisive whichever way we look at it, and therefore it is OK to take a view on it. Basically, it just confirms that the gospel is spread over a large area!

Thanks

Kaitsu

 

[Justme]

Hi group,

I go with the idea that Jesus never said the gospel would be preached over the whole earth, but a select area before the 'end' would come. He gave instructions in Matthew 10 to only go to certain places. Paul was verifying that the gospel had been preached in the required area.

I read it word for word off the page as per the English translation. That allows a word for word reading of other verses in the Olivet Discourses as well as Hebrews 9:26, well I guess all 101 verses listred here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t1173213-biblical-time-statements-of-the-end.html

Justme