College.

[Miss Spaulding]

I don't need university or college professors to become a well rounded individual.

That's a myth they sell you, at the absurd cost of tuition.

I have always been, and will always be, self educated. I just happen need a piece of paper to prove it.

I fully agree with this. I've always been of this same view on the subject. It works for me personally.

 

[SnowyMacie]

I have always been, and will always be, self educated. I just happen need a piece of paper to prove it.

The ironic thing is that every educated person in the world is technically self-education. You can't actually force education. You can force people to go to school, but you can't force them to become educated, the public school system proves this. The only thing that actually separates you from every most educated people that you are giving only yourself credit.

 

[nick garai]

Well, I went to Columbia Bible College here in Abbotsford British Columbia. I had a miserable time. I experienced anti-semitism fo five years from the community. I shouldn't have gone to that horrible school.

 

[AztecSDSU]

I seem to be getting things wrong lately. I thought for some reason you were waiting.

College is a bit different from university, but never mind. I misunderstood. Thank you for the correction.

In the US the terms college and university are typically used interchangeably.

 

[WithLoveFromAlyssa]

Does anyone recommend study tours?
The college I'm considering has a Jordan/Israel or a Turkey/Greece study tour...
they last about two weeks and are 3,200$
I think its beneficial. Seeing things like the Sea of Galilee, Mount of olives, and the stations of the cross...

 

[Cearbhall]

I don't need university or college professors to become a well rounded individual.

I agree, but taking college-level courses in a variety of disciplines taught by individuals with PhDs in those fields is one of the best ways to become a well-rounded individual, in my opinion.

I suppose this is just a cultural difference. It's never been a question in my community that a college education is pretty much the most valuable thing you can pursue, but I realize that not every community feels this way.

Does anyone recommend study tours?
The college I'm considering has a Jordan/Israel or a Turkey/Greece study tour...
they last about two weeks and are 3,200$

Is that just a short study abroad program? Definitely go for it. I'm going to do a semester-long experience so that financial aid applies, but I would go somewhere else for a few weeks in the summer if I had the money.

In the US the terms college and university are typically used interchangeably.

Yeah, I was going to say. I'm only saying "university" because it has a more universal definition than "college."

The only thing that actually separates you from every most educated people that you are giving only yourself credit.

Yeah, this is basically my reaction. He's only valuing the things that he wants to learn, so of course he finds everything else to be useless. Education is about learning, not deciding that you know better than everyone else what you need to learn.

 

[Peacemonger]

I don't need university or college professors to become a well rounded individual.

That's a myth they sell you, at the absurd cost of tuition.

I have always been, and will always be, self educated. I just happen need a piece of paper to prove it.

My belief system and life experience are exactly in line with ImperatorWall's and Miss Spaulding's. Not just this post but the other posts. It's what cynicism will do to somebody. Whether a school, class, professor, assignment, adds value is a value judgment from the consumer's perspective, the student being the consumer in this scenario. It's perfectly accurate for ImperatorWall to state that some/many classes were fluff and added no value and did not actually contribute to making a person more educated or well-rounded.

A lot of school is just a game. A system. A machine. Play the game, jump through the silly hoops. Give them lots of money, get a piece of paper. Diploma mill. It would be naive to not think of a university as a business even though most are non-profit institutions.

In high school I took classes from a top 10 private research university -- and the experience was awesome honestly. The professors and the education were top notch and valuable. Sadly I didn't get in for undergrad. I went to another private research university that was top 40 overall and top 5-10 in my particular major and majored in computer engineering then switched to another flavor of engineering. The core courses were legit. The tennis class I took? Was stupid. The technical writing class I took that was taught by a grad student? The material was good; the instructor was "meh."

I've also transferred to a third-tier state school and encountered high prevalance of professors and instructors who weren't as top notch. Some were great; others actually taught inaccurate information (like in some of my Bio classes).

It's awfully dismissive to say that professors are the end-all, be-all of truth, accuracy, wisdom, and life direction. They aren't. They're human too and subject to human flaws. Sure, they jumped through tons of hoops to climb the academic ivory tower, and I respect that, and I do think the vast supermajority know what they're talking about. It's very dangerous to put any human being on a pedestal, even professors.

But does it add real-world value? It depends on the Return-On-Investment. If I can read a book and watch some videos and learn something for $50 vs. $3000 on a class, it really depends on the class and material.

And some fields/degrees are more relevant to real-world careers than others. Other degrees? Economically worthless and not a good investment. There's people who have degrees in underwater basketweaving type studies (even Master's Degrees!) like in English or Art History who are making barely over minimum wage at Chipotle or The Gap. While others may only have a STEM degree or no degree at all and are working their way towards a legitimate salary and lots of career choices.

I'm currently in IT (so nowhere near the Engineering that I started) and it's one such example where most college classes are worthless and OBSOLETE by the time one graduates. The real stuff is learned on the job or learned through self-teaching.

To each his own. My life experience is 100% in line with ImperatorWall's and I totally identify with his views. It works for me.

I'm also drowning in student loan debt (used to be over $100,000 but it's less now), from the mistake of going to private schools instead of cheaper state schools. There is HUMONGOUS mark-ups in American education nowadays -- tuition, room and board, and textbooks are highway robbery! They are not indexed to inflation or supply/demand but are gouging my generation with tons of debt.


I think Cearbhall is simply defending her life experience thus far. What she is saying is true to her. I do think she's making naive statements and projections to others in this thread, and I think we're a little bit older with more real world life experience.

Some people need the structure of school and classwork -- others like myself are more rebellious and independent and like to go at our own [fast] pace or are hungry to learn things our way. But others like Cearbhall might love being part of the "system," another cog in the wheel. Dance, puppets, dance!

 

[Cearbhall]

Whether a school, class, professor, assignment, adds value is a value judgment from the consumer's perspective, the student being the consumer in this scenario. It's perfectly accurate for ImperatorWall to state that some/many classes were fluff and added no value and did not actually contribute to making a person more educated or well-rounded.

At what point in the education system does the student become the one who knows more than the expert educator, in your opinion? I'm just curious about this way of thinking. I also can't really think of a discipline that's just "fluff," unless you're referring to certain community college courses, which I've heard can be pretty frivolous.

That's a myth they sell you, at the absurd cost of tuition.

Meh. My private university pays for 2/3 of my tuition just because of merit scholarships, and that's before need-based financial aid. My loans are just the result of choosing to live on campus. Even if that weren't the case, it would be the most reliable investment I'll ever make.

 

[Peacemonger]

At what point in the education system does the student become the one who knows more than the expert educator, in your opinion?

Strawman.

I also can't really think of a discipline that's just "fluff," unless you're referring to certain community college courses, which I've heard can be pretty frivolous.

There are plenty of degree programs that make it hard to compete in today's job market for various reasons. The degree could be so generic that the market is oversaturated (such as my English friends who "wanted to be a writer", Art History, 16th Century Classic Languages, Philosophy), or the degree could be so niche that it doesn't directly translate to a job role.

 

[redblue22]

why do you call yourself peacemonger?

.

 

[Neve]

I don't need university or college professors to become a well rounded individual.

That's a myth they sell you, at the absurd cost of tuition.

I have always been, and will always be, self educated. I just happen need a piece of paper to prove it.

Agreed. I think that after the "building blocks" of education are established (e.g. learning the alphabet, learning to read in kindergarten, first grade), most of the "real learning" takes place outside of the classroom. I do think that school is beneficial for (1) guiding the student on when they should learn something (what to learn, pacing of it/structure) and (2) socialization.

I have been in classes in college/graduate school where the professor was new and literally one class ahead of the students on the subject. So clearly, the professor isn't always the expert.

 

[Cearbhall]

I think Cearbhall is simply defending her life experience thus far. What she is saying is true to her. I do think she's making naive statements and projections to others in this thread, and I think we're a little bit older with more real world life experience.

Some people need the structure of school and classwork -- others like myself are more rebellious and independent and like to go at our own [fast] pace or are hungry to learn things our way. But others like Cearbhall might love being part of the "system," another cog in the wheel. Dance, puppets, dance!

The condescension is strong with this one. I accept that I'm on the younger side here and can't attest to how I'll feel in the long run and I agree that I can't speak for any of you, but I object to the suggestion that I'm defending college because I need structure. On the contrary, college is useful to me because I've been proactive and made attempts to get the most out of it. College isn't just about class time. I've also participated in networking, internships, campus jobs related to my future career, and I'll soon be doing my own research.

Again, I think our disagreement is mostly due to cultural differences in how academia is viewed. There's a reason why there's a strong correlation between education and economic class. There's no question about the value of college in my community because everyone knows that's how you succeed. "The system" is how you make connections. You might as well be telling me that going to high school makes me a mindless cog in the wheel. I see no difference, and college is much more useful to me than the general education program of high schools. I'll stick with the stats, thanks.

 

[Miss Spaulding]

^ I didn't find it condescending at all. I think it was nicely put.

 

[AztecSDSU]

There are plenty of degree programs that make it hard to compete in today's job market for various reasons. The degree could be so generic that the market is oversaturated (such as my English friends who "wanted to be a writer", Art History, 16th Century Classic Languages, Philosophy), or the degree could be so niche that it doesn't directly translate to a job role.

If you choose to be a philosophy major you will be educated in philosophy. A university is a not a trade school, so it's up to the student to pick a marketable degree if that is their goal. This whole go to college to earn money thing is something the population created, not the academic world. Heaven forbid anyone learn anything for the sake of learning. If it won't make you money it's just a waste of time.

 

[AztecSDSU]

I have been in classes in college/graduate school where the professor was new and literally one class ahead of the students on the subject. So clearly, the professor isn't always the expert.

You're describing a TA, not a professor.

 

[AztecSDSU]

I think Cearbhall is simply defending her life experience thus far. What she is saying is true to her. I do think she's making naive statements and projections to others in this thread, and I think we're a little bit older with more real world life experience.

Some people need the structure of school and classwork -- others like myself are more rebellious and independent and like to go at our own [fast] pace or are hungry to learn things our way. But others like Cearbhall might love being part of the "system," another cog in the wheel. Dance, puppets, dance!

The "I'm too much of a free spirit for college" thing usually translates to "I didn't have the discipline it takes to get through the program." Which is pretty on par with starting out in engineering and ending up in IT.

 

[SnowyMacie]

why do you call yourself peacemonger?

.

That is an excellent question.

What Aztec said is right. If you major in Biology, you're going to get educated on cells, genetics, species, etc. not how to balance a budget sheet (can't remember the tecnical name). Sure, you'll take the basic gen ed requirements, but that's just several intro classes and maybe one sophomore level class. If you want to run a business, major in business...not English. I think it would be fascinating to major in Biblical Text and learn about textual criticisms and such, but I don't want to go into full time ministry...the degree would be utterly useless.

 

[Neve]

You're describing a TA, not a professor.

Some professors are experts, but not all professors are experts.

A new professor is often on the same level as a TA (TA being a PhD candidate).

 

[SnowyMacie]

Some professors are experts, but not all professors are experts.

A new professor is often on the same level as a TA (TA being a PhD candidate).

I had the worst TA ever once. It was for Speech, which is one of the few classes TAs teach here cause they don't have enough faculty in that department to teach all the sections since it's a required course for everyone. She was a second semester grad student who got her bachelor's in marketing or something. I actually knew more about public speaking than she did.

 

[Cearbhall]

I think Cearbhall is simply defending her life experience thus far. What she is saying is true to her. I do think she's making naive statements and projections to others in this thread, and I think we're a little bit older with more real world life experience.

I already responded to this, but I'd just like to point out that everyone who pushed me into college was older, and they did so because it was their key to success. I'm not sure what you're picturing here, but my experience isn't me interacting with colleges at the age of 17 and falling into their trap. Like I said, evidently, I'm from a different culture than you. I can't think of more than two adults in my family or high school life who didn't have a college degree, and nobody I know regrets getting a degree. 100% of my high school class graduated and enrolled in 4-year institutions.

I think you're just having trouble imagining that people would knowingly pay large amounts of money for classes and other university experiences that don't directly relate to a person's future career, but in my local culture, the courses in your major are only one part of college. We would go to technical colleges otherwise. I can't think of a better way to spend my money. Electives, student organizations, dorm life, and studying abroad are all things that I value more than extra vacations or a luxury car. Not to mention that part of what you're paying for is membership to the fiercely loyal alumni association, which is the best networking pool you'll ever get.

The "I'm too much of a free spirit for college" thing usually translates to "I didn't have the discipline it takes to get through the program." Which is pretty on par with starting out in engineering and ending up in IT.

I wouldn't say that. I'm sure there are people who have the intelligence and discipline to get through a bachelor's degree and simply don't value the whole package deal. It's more about a difference in priorities that has to do with certain social factors.