College professor: 'Jesus was a Muslim'

[TG123]

So, what we're going to do this thread is look at Judaism though what Christianity thinks it is as opposed to what it actually is? Good plan.

Well, you were just making quite sweeping generalizations of Christians from the viewpoint of a non-Christian. You were the one who said that most self-identified Christians are not very concerned with any moral teachings their religion teaches, and that probably the majority of self-identified Christians believe all that matters is that they are saved.

The Oral Torah is where you should look for these things.

Can you please provide links? Thanks.

The theocratic state is because I can't imagine a modern political state allowing such a court to operate. Modern political states (at least where Jews tend to live) usually keep punishing criminals and defining crime for themselves.

Could a Jewish community not act as a state?

I said no such thing.

You said this question would only be relevant if the woman was Jewish. I said there are Jewish women among prostitutes and other victims of the sex trade and human trafficking too.

The Death Penalty in Jewish Tradition - My Jewish Learning
EDIT pasted the wrong link, but I'll leave that one
From Judaism 101 - Torah - A Glossary of Basic Jewish Terms and Concepts - OU.ORG :
A second example: The concept of an "eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot" as punishment for a physical injury is mentioned in the Written Torah in "Shemot"/Exodus 21:24. This verse has been the basis for criticism of the Torah as a harsh and inhumane document for thousands of years, all based on a misunderstanding of its meaning.
The Oral Law explains that what is meant is a sophisticated five-part monetary form of compensation, consisting of payment for "Damages, Pain, Medical Expenses, Incapacitation, and Mental Anguish" - which underlie many modern "advanced" legal codes? And the expression, "An eye for an eye, etc." means that that is what the perpetrator deserves, if not for the mercy of the Torah and its Author. Ah, you ask, how do you know the Torah means that, and is not to be taken literally? Because the Torah says, "Do not take a ransom for the life of a Murderer, who is wicked to the extent that he must die"; for the murderer, there is no monetary amount that is sufficient to grant him atonement in the eyes of G-d! Only payment with his life will secure that atonement! But for other forms of injury, we will take millions of dollars from the criminal, as a ransom for his eye, hand, or foot; and as atonement, hopefully rendering him a poor man, for his terrible crime!

Can you please show some links to the Oral Law explanation? Why did the written Torah not mention monetary payment for the eye and tooth? It mentions monetary payment for other offences.

Plenty of them are. But a lot of the moral teachings are the same.

We can agree on that. But I disagree that we took most of our beliefs from Judaism.

Technically speaking, yes. I cannot think of any place where belief is commanded, but action always is. I would say I cannot see someone doing the mitzvot without belief, but I suppose it is possible.

If you do not believe, what is the purpose of the actions? Is there a difference do you think in fasting to please God, and fasting for other reasons (to lose weight, to be seen as pious, because everyone else is doing it, etc). I am just curious.

 

[TG123]

All three are supposed to be like that.. it's people who often like to pick one over the other.

And I would suggest you study Jewish law a bit more... I have my issues with it, as LoAmmi very well knows , but what you are saying shows little understanding.

I should study Jewish law more, you are right, and I don't know as much about it as I should. I guess I responded rashly to LoAmmi's statements which also were generalizations. My tone was hostile and at times rude.


LoAmmi, if you are reading this, I would like to apologize to you for the tone of some of my posts. I was frustrated and that is no justification or excuse for not treating your beliefs with respect. We can and do disagree but should not be rude about that, as I was to you. I hope you can forgive me.

I would also like to apologize to JJ and others reading our exchange.

 

[LoAmmi]

Well, you were just making quite sweeping generalizations of Christians from the viewpoint of a non-Christian. You were the one who said that most self-identified Christians are not very concerned with any moral teachings their religion teaches, and that probably the majority of self-identified Christians believe all that matters is that they are saved.

I never said "Christianity X". I am speaking of my own experiences within the world and interactions with people. I enjoy talk of religion, and my experience with many self-identified Christians is that they know very little about their faith other than "Jesus saves". I will retract the word "most" and replace "many". Is that better?

Can you please provide links? Thanks.

To the Talmud and such? That wouldn't be easy, to be honest. It's many, many volumes. The best I could probably do is this:
What is the oral Torah? - Torah.org

Could a Jewish community not act as a state?

Take a look at the history of the Jewish community within other states and you'll see why it cannot.

You said this question would only be relevant if the woman was Jewish. I said there are Jewish women among prostitutes and other victims of the sex trade and human trafficking too.

You phrased it in a way that seemed accusatory. My point is that the only people subject to any penalty in the Torah are Jews. However, I have already given you the information regarding the death penalty.

Can you please show some links to the Oral Law explanation? Why did the written Torah not mention monetary payment for the eye and tooth? It mentions monetary payment for other offences.

Because Judaism holds the Oral Torah to be one given from G-d to Moses as well as the written one. This is a very longstanding Jewish belief and one that predates Christianity.

We can agree on that. But I disagree that we took most of our beliefs from Judaism.

Christianity came from Judaism. It is an offshoot. If you want it to be more disconnected, so be it, but a lot of things Jesus said are actually predated by our sages.

If you do not believe, what is the purpose of the actions? Is there a difference do you think in fasting to please God, and fasting for other reasons (to lose weight, to be seen as pious, because everyone else is doing it, etc). I am just curious.

I am merely pointing out that the action itself is the key in Judaism. As to why someone would perform the actions without believing, you would need to ask them. Some mitzvot in Judaism are just good things.

 

[TG123]

Alright. Where's the verse that prostitutes are to be stoned to death for one?
Leviticus 21:9

And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

It isn't a child who disobeys their parents for two.

You are right, it is about sons. Probably applies to grown men, although the age of the offender is not specified in the verse. However it still stands that a parent according to the Law can kill his son for disobedience.

The third one was ordered in the text by the same deity you claim Jesus is, so why the sudden change of heart by an unchangeable being?

Not a change of heart, but full revelation of the Law. The Law in its entirety states that some things are still wrong, but only God can take revenge. Picking up sticks though is not wrong anymore, as people can work on the Sabbath to sustain themselves if they need to.

 

[LoAmmi]

I should study Jewish law more, you are right, and I don't know as much about it as I should. I guess I responded rashly to LoAmmi's statements which also were generalizations. My tone was hostile and at times rude.


LoAmmi, if you are reading this, I would like to apologize to you for the tone of some of my posts. I was frustrated and that is no justification or excuse for not treating your beliefs with respect. We can and do disagree but should not be rude about that, as I was to you. I hope you can forgive me.

I apologize if I upset you. I wasn't trying to make some grand accusation against Christianity. I am actually suggesting there is a problem where Christianity is simply the default within a culture. People who are "Christian" because their parents were "Christian" and so forth. You seem to agree with me in one post but then snap back and become defensive over it in another.

 

[LoAmmi]

Leviticus 21:9

And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

So, this is specifically regarding a kohen, not just an average Jew. However, it would be folly to simply read the verse and think that is how it is to apply. The how-to understand the Law is in the Oral Torah.

You are right, it is about sons. Probably applies to grown men, although the age of the offender is not specified in the verse. However it still stands that a parent according to the Law can kill his son for disobedience.

No they cannot. They must also go to the courts and such. They simply cannot kill the child and wash their hands of it.

Not a change of heart, but full revelation of the Law. The Law in its entirety states that some things are still wrong, but only God can take revenge. Picking up sticks though is not wrong anymore, as people can work on the Sabbath to sustain themselves if they need to.

People always could work on Shabbat to sustain themselves if they need to. Saving a life, even one's own, takes precedence over the commandments. Also, Shabbat only applies to Jews. So you being able to do anything on Shabbat is not a problem.

I do not think that there was anything lacking in the Torah. It is a Christian concept that it was.

 

[LoAmmi]

Leviticus 21:9

And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

To give you a bit of commentary by Rashi:

If [a kohen’s daughter] becomes desecrated through adultery: Heb. כִּי תֵחֵל. [The word תֵּחֵל here, stems from the word חִלּוּל, desecration, and not from the word הַתְחָלָה, beginning, and thus, the phrase here means:] If she becomes desecrated (תִּתְחַלֵּ&#1500 through a forbidden union, whereby she had a marriage-bond to a man and she committed adultery-whether [this bond had been] a betrothal or a marriage. And our Rabbis differ with regards to the matter [i.e., as to which stage of marriage-bond is referred to here]. All agree, however, that Scripture did not speak of a single woman. — [Sanh. 50b-51a]


So, see how what you think may not be what Judaism did or thought on the matter?

 

[JJWhite]

I would also like to apologize to JJ and others reading our exchange.

I was just a little surprised to see something out of character.

May God guide us to knowledge which is beneficial and help us to benefit from it.

 

[TG123]

I apologize if I upset you. I wasn't trying to make some grand accusation against Christianity. I am actually suggesting there is a problem where Christianity is simply the default within a culture. People who are "Christian" because their parents were "Christian" and so forth. You seem to agree with me in one post but then snap back and become defensive over it in another.

No hard feelings towards you at all, and I accept your apology although I maybe misconstrued your words so in that case you maybe don't need to apologize. Sorry, I guess it looked like to me you were painting most of us with the same brush. I agree with you that many Christians, especially in the US and Canada and Western Europe, don't take their faith seriously, and there is a huge problem with people who claim they are 'christian' just because their parents are, or because it is trendy in some places. I think it is inaccurate and unfair to imply that most of us are like that, which is what I thought you were saying.

I guess I got a bit defensive because of the things my wife and I, and many Christians we know are involved in, both inside and outside of our churches, from being involved in teaching kids and leading youth group and helping at soup kitchens, volunteering at drop-ins, etc. I also know Christians personally like my pastor who has been beaten up more than a few times while intervening to stop assaults and fights, our church is located in a rough part of the city; others who have been in situations overseas where because of their work they have contracted diseases like malaria and some have been badly hurt in violent encounters; in ways that makes my broken nose in Hebron look like the minor scrape that it was. And I know that there is never enough, there is always more everyone can and should be doing to change things for the better. I just know so many people who are Christians and who reach out to others and in doing so give up a lot of their time and money and yes sometimes even emotional and physical well-being, because, not in spite of, their faith that I got a bit upset because your words seemed to be saying these things about us too.

Again, not a justification or excuse for how I reacted. I hope you forgive me, I have nothing against you. Shalom.

 

[Christianmilitaryofficer]

Statistics on what? That 2/3 of the LDS church are pro-Republican? I copied and pasted information from the survey that LoAmmi has provided. I can do it again for you.

But you have to realize that you are not being truthful. The article is about America. Around half of Mormons in the world live outside of America. Therefore simple mathematics would tell you that .5 x .66=.33, meaning a third of the LDS church are pro-Republican, not 66%. It would hard to be pro-Republican in France, for example.

Do you want statistics to show that the Republicans were the ones who invaded Afghanistan and Iraq? Bush was a Republican president and his party was in power when these nations were invaded. The Democrats spinelessly supported him for the most part but fact is it was a Republican president who launched the war?

And this is post hoc ergo propter hoc. President Bush did not campaign on going to war, so it is fallacious to assert that anyone of the same party agreed with all of his actions.

Do you want statistics to show that the Republicans are for privatized healthcare?
Here is another link from Pew showing massive Republican opposition to the proposed Health Care Law.
Section 2: The SupremeÂ[bless and do not curse] Court and Health Care | Pew Research Center for the People and the Press

What would your point be? It is already easy to dismiss your comments as incorrect because of a basic flaw in your reasoning.

I am far more disgusted with the evangelicals since as people who actually accept the Bible alone as God's message, they really should know better.

This too is incorrect. While I certainly do not doubt that you believe this, there are a lot of problems with the position, since many Evangelicals are poorly informed at best when it comes to Biblical support, theology, history and any other host of issues related to Christianity. I know many Evangelicals who are exceptionally well informed on these issues, but oddly enough I find that as a Mormon, I am more inclined to have read Evangelical scholarship than an Evangelical is.

The "Left Behind" series, for example, may have been a good read, but it was completely unsupported in the history of Christianity. Very few Evangelicals seem to have noticed, and likely even less cared.

 

[KimberlyAA]

0 BC doesn't exist ... Jesus came to spread the Word of God and fulfill the prophecies written by the Old Testament prophets hundreds of years earlier. How can one call Jesus a Muslim by comparing his teachings to a social justice movement? Especially when Islam was born >600 years later? Kinda seems nonsensical to me to say "He was a Muslim" when Muslims did not exist at that time period.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

II was frustrated and that is no justification or excuse for not treating your beliefs with respect.

The root of that appears to be, (if not the heat wave) you thinking that Judaism is limited to what we call the Pentateuch, and Jews might refer to as the "written Torah." It is not, but also includes what they call an "oral Torah." I'm curious to know if that is limited to the Talmud? (I think it at least includes the Talmud, but I may be wrong even about that? How is the midrash different?)

There is also an interesting parallel here to what Jesus referred to as "traditions of men," and how that might (or might not) carry over to Christian tradition.

 

[TG123]

So, this is specifically regarding a kohen, not just an average Jew. However, it would be folly to simply read the verse and think that is how it is to apply. The how-to understand the Law is in the Oral Torah.

Thanks for that and for the link below. I will comment about it in another thread.

No they cannot. They must also go to the courts and such. They simply cannot kill the child and wash their hands of it.

Thank you for correcting me. However, if I understand correctly, parents do have the right to take their son or daughter to court to be tried and executed for disobeying them, is that correct?

People always could work on Shabbat to sustain themselves if they need to. Saving a life, even one's own, takes precedence over the commandments. Also, Shabbat only applies to Jews. So you being able to do anything on Shabbat is not a problem.

Sorry, I should be more clear, I was referring to Jews in all of my questions. Can you please show me where it is taught that work on the Shabbat is allowed if in urgent cases?

I do not think that there was anything lacking in the Torah. It is a Christian concept that it was.

I respect your view, although I disagree. I think Jesus by making clear that capital punishment is never acceptable, improves it. No offense intended.

 

[LoAmmi]

No hard feelings towards you at all, and I accept your apology although I maybe misconstrued your words so in that case you maybe don't need to apologize. Sorry, I guess it looked like to me you were painting most of us with the same brush. I agree with you that many Christians, especially in the US and Canada and Western Europe, don't take their faith seriously, and there is a huge problem with people who claim they are 'christian' just because their parents are, or because it is trendy in some places. I think it is inaccurate and unfair to imply that most of us are like that, which is what I thought you were saying.

I guess I got a bit defensive because of the things my wife and I, and many Christians we know are involved in, both inside and outside of our churches, from being involved in teaching kids and leading youth group and helping at soup kitchens, volunteering at drop-ins, etc. I also know Christians personally like my pastor who has been beaten up more than a few times while intervening to stop assaults and fights, our church is located in a rough part of the city; others who have been in situations overseas where because of their work they have contracted diseases like malaria and some have been badly hurt in violent encounters; in ways that makes my broken nose in Hebron look like the minor scrape that it was. And I know that there is never enough, there is always more everyone can and should be doing to change things for the better. I just know so many people who are Christians and who reach out to others and in doing so give up a lot of their time and money and yes sometimes even emotional and physical well-being, because, not in spite of, their faith that I got a bit upset because your words seemed to be saying these things about us too.

No, I would never attack people who are genuine. It is simply my experience that at least in the area of the US I am in that most people who tell me they are Christian say it with the same amount of enthusiasm that they say they are a Leo or Scorpio. I did not grow up surrounded by Jews. I grew up surrounded by Christians. The majority of the ones I knew had no idea about anything Jesus said or even did apart from "die for me" and "loves me".

I read the New Testament and knew more about their faith and its history than they would or even cared about. It was something I have seen repeated over and over again.

Again, not a justification or excuse for how I reacted. I hope you forgive me, I have nothing against you. Shalom.

There is nothing to forgive. I do ask that you please look into my beliefs a bit in order to understand where you have been mistaken.

 

[LoAmmi]

Thank you for correcting me. However, if I understand correctly, parents do have the right to take their son or daughter to court to be tried and executed for disobeying them, is that correct?

They could try, just like I could sue you right now for any reason I want. The rabbis have described such a child as the one described in the text as, well, not being a child for one and being so rebellious that it would be basically impossible for such a person to exist.

Sorry, I should be more clear, I was referring to Jews in all of my questions. Can you please show me where it is taught that work on the Shabbat is allowed if in urgent cases?

Look to the same story Jesus quoted when confronted about picking on Shabbat. David needed to eat and would have died if he didn't so he ate the bread that was to only be for the priest. He was not judged to have done anything wrong because it was necessary to save his life.
What people don't realize is that, if the story is true, Jesus was making an argument the rabbis would have recognized.

I respect your view, although I disagree. I think Jesus by making clear that capital punishment is never acceptable, improves it. No offense intended.

I don't believe in capital punishment. As the one link I said shows, generally now Judaism does not believe in capital punishment. I will point out that countries stopping capital punishment is a relatively new development, even in countries that had Christianity as an official religion.

 

[TG123]

But you have to realize that you are not being truthful. The article is about America. Around half of Mormons in the world live outside of America. Therefore simple mathematics would tell you that .5 x .66=.33, meaning a third of the LDS church are pro-Republican, not 66%. It would hard to be pro-Republican in France, for example.

And lo and behold, everything that you have said about Christians in this thread also applies to Christians... in America. The statistics you are quoting from and the statistics I am quoting from... are from a website about American Christians.

If you look at the statistics, which LoAmmi has graciously provided, far, far, far more people claim to be Christian, than people who actually put themselves in a pew anywhere. Additionally, simply attending a building on Sundays does not in and of itself indicate much. This is actually a pretty significant problem with Christianity today, adherence is largely non-existent.

There are an estimated 2,331,509,000 Christians in the world. Of these, 249,400,000 are American Christians. So on this whole thread you have been commenting on 10.6% of the world's Christian population, but decided to simply label them as 'Christians' and called the problems with many American Christians as problems with 'Christianity'. USA = not world.

What would your point be? It is already easy to dismiss your comments as incorrect because of a basic flaw in your reasoning.

My point is that the accusations you make against American Christians can just as easily be made against American Mormons. My comments are as incorrect as yours are.

This too is incorrect. While I certainly do not doubt that you believe this, there are a lot of problems with the position, since many Evangelicals are poorly informed at best when it comes to Biblical support, theology, history and any other host of issues related to Christianity. I know many Evangelicals who are exceptionally well informed on these issues, but oddly enough I find that as a Mormon, I am more inclined to have read Evangelical scholarship than an Evangelical is.

Can you provide any stats, or is this based on your personal experiences?

The "Left Behind" series, for example, may have been a good read, but it was completely unsupported in the history of Christianity. Very few Evangelicals seem to have noticed, and likely even less cared.

The "Left Behind" series is written a little bit better than Spiderman and not as good as Batman comics. My wife and I and many Christian friends of ours consider it nothing more than a joke. It makes dumb and Biblically unsupported assumptions about the end of the world, adding to what God has to say in about it, and in fact the Book of Revelation threatens God's punishment on people who try to add or take away from the book. It is popular among many teens, and sadly probably also many adults who should know better.

 

[TG123]

No, I would never attack people who are genuine. It is simply my experience that at least in the area of the US I am in that most people who tell me they are Christian say it with the same amount of enthusiasm that they say they are a Leo or Scorpio. I did not grow up surrounded by Jews. I grew up surrounded by Christians. The majority of the ones I knew had no idea about anything Jesus said or even did apart from "die for me" and "loves me".

I read the New Testament and knew more about their faith and its history than they would or even cared about. It was something I have seen repeated over and over again.


There is nothing to forgive. I do ask that you please look into my beliefs a bit in order to understand where you have been mistaken.

Thanks LoAmmi for clarifying what you meant. I am sorry you have that experience and that most Christians you meet in your area seem to be what the Bible calls lukewarm in their faith. I have had the blessing to get to meet many Jews in my city as well as in Israel and Palestine who are very involved in working for social justice and show great moral courage as well as physical courage that approaches and meets the point of what I would call heroism, not just the Israeli soldiers (who were both Jewish and Arab) and settlers who showed a level of brutality, arrogance and hatred I haven't witnessed anywhere else... that being said I haven't been to any other part of the world where there is armed conflict. The US-Mexico border and the inner city where we live is at times very violent but I can't say it is an armed conflict, at least from what I have seen. I will look into your beliefs in more detail.

 

[LoAmmi]

Thanks LoAmmi for clarifying what you meant. I am sorry you have that experience and that most Christians you meet in your area seem to be what the Bible calls lukewarm in their faith. I have had the blessing to get to meet many Jews in my city as well as in Israel and Palestine who are very involved in working for social justice and show great moral courage as well as physical courage that approaches and meets the point of what I would call heroism, not just the Israeli soldiers (who were both Jewish and Arab) and settlers who showed a level of brutality, arrogance and hatred I haven't witnessed anywhere else... that being said I haven't been to any other part of the world where there is armed conflict. The US-Mexico border and the inner city where we live is at times very violent but I can't say it is an armed conflict, at least from what I have seen. I will look into your beliefs in more detail.

I have encountered plenty of Christians who are genuine. There is an innerfaith group around the area that does a lot of good. To be honest I rarely have a problem with a Christians so long as they take "I'm not interested" as an answer or are honest in their debates with me. By honest I mean also letting me get my points in.

Well, the hatred between the Israelis and the Palestinians is a great tragedy of our time. Those on both sides that engage in behaviors that are terrible should feel great shame. Remember that there are two sides to this and both have a lot to be sad over.

It's funny to me because I think peace is right there. It's on the horizon.... but the sides don't feel like walking that far to grab it.

 

[JJWhite]

There is also an interesting parallel here to what Jesus referred to as "traditions of men," and how that might (or might not) carry over to Christian tradition.

I thought this was an interesting talk on that... Coptic speaker...

Orthodox answers to Protestants confusion Part 1 - YouTube

 

[RaiseTheDead]

It's funny to me because I think peace is right there. It's on the horizon.... but the sides don't feel like walking that far to grab it.

Do you think it's as simple as merely ceasing to attack one another, or would it take more?