Col 2 is not opposing the Bible - it is opposing making stuff up via traditions of man

klutedavid · Sep 2, 2019

BobRyan said:
proof for Col 2 -- condemning the traditions and doctrines of man - and upholding the Word of God --

Col 2 is opposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Acts 15:1-2 the historic context of some folks 'making stuff up' and saying that one cannot be saved unless they comply with the made-up rules. In Col 2:14-15 Paul points out that salvation is through Christ who paid the debt of sin owed. Then Paul goes after all the various forms of making-stuff-up showing how it is condemned.

Col 2:
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

============= Christ Himself condemned Bible-denying traditions of man

GOD speaks for God and HE already spoke to this point of changing His Law via church tradition. As we see in Mark 7:6-13

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it is shown via "Sola Scriptura" testing that it is traditions and "doctrines of men" that are at odds with scripture

================= Accuser of the Brethren condemned

In Rev 12 we see the work of the "Accuser of the brethren".

In Matt 7 (pre-cross -- and law in full effect) Christ condemns judging others.

In Col 2:16 we have this -

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

An example of NOT condemning eating OR drinking or remembering God's Ten-Commandment creation-Sabbath day to keep it holy. Rather Col 2 condemns the "commandments of men" - (as is so carefully avoided in the quotes we often see from Col 2)

Col 2 is 0pposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command. - so it is opposed to 'making stuff up' - via "man-made tradition"

Your exegesis is faulty and extremely twisted.

Your discussing the second chapter of Paul's letter to the Colossians and some how, Bob. You have quoted from Matthew, Mark, Exodus, and the book of Revelation.

No wonder you are twisting the second chapter of the letter to the Colossians to exert an alternative interpretation.

Paul refers to both the law and to the traditions and commandments of men in this second chapter of Colossians. Paul is not just talking about man made traditions.

BobRyan · Sep 2, 2019

BobRyan said:
proof for Col 2 -- condemning the traditions and doctrines of man - and upholding the Word of God --

Col 2 is opposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Acts 15:1-2 the historic context of some folks 'making stuff up' and saying that one cannot be saved unless they comply with the made-up rules. In Col 2:14-15 Paul points out that salvation is through Christ who paid the debt of sin owed. Then Paul goes after all the various forms of making-stuff-up showing how it is condemned.

Col 2:
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

============= Christ Himself condemned Bible-denying traditions of man

GOD speaks for God and HE already spoke to this point of changing His Law via church tradition. As we see in Mark 7:6-13

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it is shown via "Sola Scriptura" testing that it is traditions and "doctrines of men" that are at odds with scripture

================= Accuser of the Brethren condemned

In Rev 12 we see the work of the "Accuser of the brethren".

In Matt 7 (pre-cross -- and law in full effect) Christ condemns judging others.

In Col 2:16 we have this -

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

An example of NOT condemning eating OR drinking or remembering God's Ten-Commandment creation-Sabbath day to keep it holy. Rather Col 2 condemns the "commandments of men" - (as is so carefully avoided in the quotes we often see from Col 2)

Col 2 is 0pposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command. - so it is opposed to 'making stuff up' - via "man-made tradition"

klutedavid said:
Your exegesis is faulty and extremely twisted.

I understand that you might "differ" with my post but... "twisted"?? "extremely twisted"?? seriously?

klutedavid said:
Your discussing the second chapter of Paul's letter to the Colossians

I think we can all agree on that point

Have you considered addressing any of the points/texts raised in the OP???

klutedavid said:
Paul refers to both the law and to the traditions and commandments of men in this second chapter of Colossians.

Paul says the "Law of God is holy just and good" Rom 7:12 and that he "agrees with it" Romans 7.

You knew that right??

You respond to this quote in the OP -

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

by saying

klutedavid said:
Paul is not just talking about man made traditions.

Seriously??

klutedavid · Sep 2, 2019

BobRyan said:
I understand that you might "differ" with my post but... "twisted"?? "extremely twisted"?? seriously?

I think we can all agree on that point

Have you considered addressing any of the points/texts raised in the OP???

Paul says the "Law of God is holy just and good" Rom 7:12 and that he "agrees with it" Romans 7.

You knew that right??

You respond to this quote in the OP -

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

by saying

Seriously??

I think I see what your saying but far to many big words.

I addressed your OP directly.

Yet you veered from Colossians 2 as shown below.

Paul says the "Law of God is holy just and good" Rom 7:12 and that he "agrees with it" Romans 7.

That has nothing to do with your OP and a clear example of cherry picking verses, to support your method of interpretation.

Paul mentions circumcision which is beyond the commandments and traditions of men.

How about you answer the following verse also.

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us...

Nothing to do with any tradition!

BobRyan · Sep 3, 2019

Paul says the "Law of God is holy just and good" Rom 7:12 and that he "agrees with it" Romans 7.

klutedavid said:
That has nothing to do with your OP

Well it is not the "traditions of man" that Paul condemns in Col 2 and quoted in the OP - rather it is the Word of God - where Paul says "do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

My thread title and OP point out that the Word of God, the LAW of God is not condemned in Col 2 - rather it is merely the "traditions of man" that is condemned there.

As we can all see --staying with the topic.

Bob S · Sep 12, 2019

Heya Bob, You tell us Col2 is about not judging. Well, that is what it says so I have to agree with you on that point. The question I have is why do you and your SDA church judge the rest of us concerning the Sabbath by telling us we are going to hell if we don't join you in the day you choose? I believe it works both ways don't you?
Col2:
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

I am concerned with verse 17 where it is telling all of us that a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day are shadows of things that were to come. It says the reality is in Christ. Does that somehow change the meaning of what we thought about verse 16? verse 16 mentions the shadows that verse 17 confirms. Are shadows reality? Could verse 16 be stated as follows: Don't allow anyone to judge us concerning the Jewish religious festivals, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day, now reduced to shadows because being in Christ is now our reality.

Jesus is my reality, so please stop judging me to hell for not worshipping shadows, one which is the old covenant weekly Sabbath. When and where I worship should be no concern to you or your church. Passing judgment on me certainly is not pleasing to God and only hurts those who do it.

BobRyan · Sep 12, 2019

BobRyan said:
Col 2: 8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

============= Christ Himself condemned Bible-denying traditions of man

GOD speaks for God and HE already spoke to this point of changing His Law via church tradition. As we see in Mark 7:6-13

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Bob S said:
Heya Bob, You tell us Col2 is about not judging.

You post as if I am the author of Col 2... why do that?

BobRyan · Sep 12, 2019

BobRyan said:
proof for Col 2 -- condemning the traditions and doctrines of man - and upholding the Word of God --

Col 2 is opposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Acts 15:1-2 the historic context of some folks 'making stuff up' and saying that one cannot be saved unless they comply with the made-up rules. In Col 2:14-15 Paul points out that salvation is through Christ who paid the debt of sin owed. Then Paul goes after all the various forms of making-stuff-up showing how it is condemned.

Col 2:
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

============= Christ Himself condemned Bible-denying traditions of man

GOD speaks for God and HE already spoke to this point of changing His Law via church tradition. As we see in Mark 7:6-13

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it is shown via "Sola Scriptura" testing that it is traditions and "doctrines of men" that are at odds with scripture

================= Accuser of the Brethren condemned

In Rev 12 we see the work of the "Accuser of the brethren".

In Matt 7 (pre-cross -- and law in full effect) Christ condemns judging others.

In Col 2:16 we have this -

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

An example of NOT condemning eating OR drinking or remembering God's Ten-Commandment creation-Sabbath day to keep it holy. Rather Col 2 condemns the "commandments of men" - (as is so carefully avoided in the quotes we often see from Col 2)

Col 2 is 0pposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command. - so it is opposed to 'making stuff up' - via "man-made tradition"

klutedavid said:
Your exegesis is faulty and extremely twisted.

I understand that you might "differ" with my post but... "twisted"?? "extremely twisted"?? seriously?

klutedavid said:
Your discussing the second chapter of Paul's letter to the Colossians

I think we can all agree on that point

Have you considered addressing any of the points/texts raised in the OP???

klutedavid said:
Paul refers to both the law and to the traditions and commandments of men in this second chapter of Colossians.

Paul says the "Law of God is holy just and good" Rom 7:12 and that he "agrees with it" Romans 7.

You knew that right??

You respond to this quote in the OP -

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

by saying

klutedavid said:
Paul is not just talking about man made traditions.

Seriously??

klutedavid said:
I think I see what your saying but far to many big words.

How so??

klutedavid · Sep 12, 2019

BobRyan said:
I understand that you might "differ" with my post but... "twisted"?? "extremely twisted"?? seriously?

I think we can all agree on that point

Have you considered addressing any of the points/texts raised in the OP???

Paul says the "Law of God is holy just and good" Rom 7:12 and that he "agrees with it" Romans 7.

You knew that right??

You respond to this quote in the OP -

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

by saying

Seriously??

How so??

Your quotation from Romans is not related to context within Colossians chapter two.

Here I will give you an example to illustrate what you are doing wrong.

If I was discussing Colossians chapter two and I quoted the following verse.

Romans 3:1-2
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every respect.

You would scratch your head and say what has that verse from Romans got to do with chapter two of Colossians?

The fact that the letter to the Romans is a different letter means that we cannot really use quotations from the letter to the Romans. To support or understand an interpretation of the letter to the Colossians.

This is why your interpretation is faulty. You interpret the letter to the Colossians by using verses from the letter to the Romans.

BobRyan · Sep 12, 2019

BobRyan said:
Paul says the "Law of God is holy just and good" Rom 7:12 and that he "agrees with it" Romans 7.

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

klutedavid said:
Your quotation from Romans is not related to context within Colossians chapter two.

on the contrary - the reader instantly sees that the Law of God "holy just and true" is in contrast to the "commandments and teaching of men" ...

Same thing happens in Mark 7:6-13

6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

A clear example condemning man-made-tradition but not condemning scripture, the "Word of God" as Christ says here.

Just as we see in my quote of Col2 at the top of this post

the point remains.

klutedavid · Sep 12, 2019

BobRyan said:
on the contrary - the reader instantly sees that the Law of God "holy just and true" is in contrast to the "commandments and teaching of men" ...

Same thing happens in Mark 7:6-13

the point remains.

The random quotation from the gospel of Mark concerns Jesus speaking to those under the law.
Jesus is not directly addressing the Gentiles in this letter by Mark.

Your random quotations ignore the context of the letters that you extract them from. This renders your interpretation erroneous.

The law was given directly to the Jews and no one else.

Once again the letter to the Colossians must be understood directly from the context in the letter to the Colosians.

Otherwise if everyone uses different interpretations we will end up with a thousand conflicting church movements.

Bob S · Sep 13, 2019

klutedavid said:
The random quotation from the gospel of Mark concerns Jesus speaking to those under the law.
Jesus is not directly addressing the Gentiles in this letter by Mark.

Your random quotations ignore the context of the letters that you extract them from. This renders your interpretation erroneous.

The law was given directly to the Jews and no one else.

Once again the letter to the Colossians must be understood directly from the context in the letter to the Colosians.

Otherwise if everyone uses different interpretations we will end up with a thousand conflicting church movements.

Might just as well correspond to a brick wall KD. Back some in a corner and all we get are snide remarks. At least the lurkers know better than to accept their ideas. The real truth eventually wins.

Frogster · Sep 14, 2019

BobRyan said:
proof for Col 2 -- condemning the traditions and doctrines of man - and upholding the Word of God --

Col 2 is opposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Acts 15:1-2 the historic context of some folks 'making stuff up' and saying that one cannot be saved unless they comply with the made-up rules. In Col 2:14-15 Paul points out that salvation is through Christ who paid the debt of sin owed. Then Paul goes after all the various forms of making-stuff-up showing how it is condemned.

Col 2:
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

============= Christ Himself condemned Bible-denying traditions of man

GOD speaks for God and HE already spoke to this point of changing His Law via church tradition. As we see in Mark 7:6-13

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it is shown via "Sola Scriptura" testing that it is traditions and "doctrines of men" that are at odds with scripture

================= Accuser of the Brethren condemned

In Rev 12 we see the work of the "Accuser of the brethren".

In Matt 7 (pre-cross -- and law in full effect) Christ condemns judging others.

In Col 2:16 we have this -

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

An example of NOT condemning eating OR drinking or remembering God's Ten-Commandment creation-Sabbath day to keep it holy. Rather Col 2 condemns the "commandments of men" - (as is so carefully avoided in the quotes we often see from Col 2)

Col 2 is 0pposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command. - so it is opposed to 'making stuff up' - via "man-made tradition"

BobRyan · Sep 15, 2019

BobRyan said:
Paul says the "Law of God is holy just and good" Rom 7:12 and that he "agrees with it" Romans 7.

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

klutedavid said:
Your quotation from Romans is not related to context within Colossians chapter two.

on the contrary - the reader instantly sees that the Law of God "holy just and true" is in contrast to the "commandments and teaching of men" ...

Same thing happens in Mark 7:6-13

6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

A clear example condemning man-made-tradition but not condemning scripture, the "Word of God" as Christ says here.

Just as we see in my quote of Col2 at the top of this post

the point remains.

klutedavid said:
The random quotation from the gospel of Mark concerns Jesus speaking to those under the law.
Jesus is not directly addressing the Gentiles in this letter by Mark.

1. There is no such thing in scripture as "gentiles please pay no attention to the teachings of Christ if you want to be a Christian" and I think we will all agree on that.
2. The clear contrast between traditions of man and actual scripture that we see in Mark 7 is also found in Col 2 where the quote shows that it is the traditions of man that are leading astray.
3. The text is not "random" simply because it refutes a claim you are making in Col 2.

klutedavid said:
Your random quotations ignore the context of the letters that you extract them from.

On the contrary - when I posted that reference to Mark 7 I had not yet even included a quote of it - and you then respond it is an out of context quote?... that is very "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

The law was given directly to the Jews and no one else.

Is 56:6-8 specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping.. we can all see that.
Is 66:23 applies it to "all mankind" -- we can all see that.
Acts 13 has both Jews and gentiles in Sabbath services for Gospel preaching ... Sabbath after Sabbath.. -- we can all see that.
Acts 18:4 has gentiles in Sabbath services for gospel preaching "every Sabbath" ... we can all see that.

Once again exegesis includes including the scope of the topic as found in scripture rather than just isolating one chapter from the rest of scripture.. I think we all know this fact.

klutedavid · Sep 15, 2019

BobRyan said:
on the contrary - the reader instantly sees that the Law of God "holy just and true" is in contrast to the "commandments and teaching of men" ...

Same thing happens in Mark 7:6-13

6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

A clear example condemning man-made-tradition but not condemning scripture, the "Word of God" as Christ says here.

Just as we see in my quote of Col2 at the top of this post

the point remains.

1. There is no such thing in scripture as "gentiles please pay no attention to the teachings of Christ if you want to be a Christian" and I think we will all agree on that.
2. The clear contrast between traditions of man and actual scripture that we see in Mark 7 is also found in Col 2 where the quote shows that it is the traditions of man that are leading astray.
3. The text is not "random" simply because it refutes a claim you are making in Col 2.

On the contrary - when I posted that reference to Mark 7 I had not yet even included a quote of it - and you then respond it is an out of context quote?... that is very "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

Is 56:6-8 specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping.. we can all see that.
Is 66:23 applies it to "all mankind" -- we can all see that.
Acts 13 has both Jews and gentiles in Sabbath services for Gospel preaching ... Sabbath after Sabbath.. -- we can all see that.
Acts 18:4 has gentiles in Sabbath services for gospel preaching "every Sabbath" ... we can all see that.

Once again exegesis includes including the scope of the topic as found in scripture rather than just isolating one chapter from the rest of scripture.. I think we all know this fact.

You ignore the context therefore your interpretation is erroneous.

BobRyan · Sep 15, 2019

klutedavid said:
You ignore the context therefore your interpretation is erroneous.

I merely quoted it.

Your argument is "with the text"

The argument that "needs" to ignore the teaching of Christ concerning the traditions of men - as seen in Mark 7 and again in Col 2 -- is transparently flawed.

klutedavid · Sep 15, 2019

BobRyan said:
I merely quoted it.

Your argument is "with the text"

The argument that "needs" to ignore the teaching of Christ concerning the traditions of men - as seen in Mark 7 and again in Col 2 -- is transparently flawed.

You quoted Mark out of the original context of the seventh chapter of Mark. You follow a long tradition of misquoting from the scripture.

Mark chapter seven concerns Pharisees and Scribes ignoring commandments and imposing their own doctrines. To expand that text and apply it to people who are not under the law is ridiculous. But that is the tradition of the interpretation that you were taught.

BobRyan · Sep 16, 2019

klutedavid said:
You quoted Mark out of the original context of the seventh chapter of Mark.

nope. That did not happen .. I quoted the discussion in Mark exactly as it is written.

klutedavid said:
You follow a long tradition of misquoting from the scripture.
.

Adding false accusations does not make your initial speculation true.

Here is the actual fact showing what the objective unbiased Bible student finds in Mark 7

Mark 7:6-13
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

And we all know it

The mere quote of the text is sufficient cause to give rise to your strong objection to it.

klutedavid said:
Mark chapter seven concerns Pharisees and Scribes ignoring commandments and imposing their own doctrines. .

Indeed - the traditions of man - as found in the one-true nation church of Christ's day -- was being hammered "sola scriptura" showing the traditions of man hammered without deleting scripture itself.

Is it any wonder that Paul points to the same problem with the "traditions of man"?

BobRyan said:
Paul says the "Law of God is holy just and good" Rom 7:12 and that he "agrees with it" Romans 7.

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

The point remains

Joy · Sep 16, 2019

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Col 2 is not opposing the Bible - it is opposing making stuff up via traditions of man

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Galatians is the best!

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