Col 2 condemns commandments of men - not commandments of God

[BobRyan]

This thread shows why it is you cannot do away with God's Creation Memorial - Bible Sabbath using Colossians 2.

=======================

In Rev 12 we see the work of the "Accuser of the brethren".
In Matt 7 (pre-cross -- and law in full effect) Christ condemns judging others.

Col 2 is 0pposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command. - so it is opposed to 'making stuff up' - via "man-made tradition"


So then Col 2 -- condemns the traditions and doctrines of man - and also approves upholding the Word of God --

Col 2 is opposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

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In Col 2:16 we have this -

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

An example of NOT condemning eating OR drinking or remembering God's Ten-Commandment creation-Sabbath day to keep it holy. Rather Col 2 condemns the "commandments of men" - (as is so carefully avoided in the quotes we often see from Col 2)

Paul was speaking of the annual Sabbaths - they were instituted from the start such that they are only celebrated via "sacrifice and offering" -- making them shadows of the coming of Christ

As is Christ against it --

GOD speaks for God and HE already spoke to this point of changing His Law via church tradition. As we see in Mark 7:6-13

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

In that example "The commandment of God" = "Moses said" = "Word of God"

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it is shown via "Sola Scriptura" testing that it is traditions and "doctrines of men" that are at odds with scripture

==========================

so then in answer to this

Paul shows this in Colossians 2 by not judging in respect of the holy days and the sabbath and the new moon. Paul called these were shadow of things to come which means it was not reality for the church. It will be a reality in the millennial kingdom because it was synomonous with Israel's earthly calling as the head of the nation because the law will go forth out of Zion.
Paul said hear were a shadow of things to come which is future. It is not a shadow of things today in the church.
He made a separation of the shadow of the sabbath etc. and the body of Christ.

We have this thread.

- suffice it to say that nothing in Col 2 says "Sabbath used to be a commandment of God - is now suspended - but will resume later in the millennium" - rather that entire idea is a commandment and tradition of man.

 

[BobRyan]

Do we have modern day examples of condemning others - for the sake of the traditions of man?

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bugkiller said: ↑
Who but the pro law people are doing this very thing? Has anyone condemned you for trying to keep or as you will claim keeping the Sabbath?

You can't be serious.

Perhaps a short "summary" to refresh memory.
=============================================
=============================================

disciple1 said: ↑
You don't obey the Sabbath, .

Do you say that as the "Accuser of the brethren" in Rev 12 - or do you have some "other source"??


Bob S said: ↑
Perhaps most, at least some, of us give lip service to that idea. However, is there a particular reason you don't keep all of God's commandments?

[/quote]

bbbbbbb said: ↑
It seems to me that you and your SDA brethren are very busy transgressing the Law day in and day out, unless you have utterly deceived yourselves into believing that the LAW consists of only ten select commandments. Even then, you transgress the fourth commandment egregiously.

Here is some Bible study.

Rev 12
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest (remnant) of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

disciple1 said: ↑
You don't obey the Sabbath.

And then of course we have

bugkiller said: ↑
I'd love to respond to this false statement indicating your claim to be one of the brethren, but can't without having my post removed.

bugkiller said: ↑
You don't fool us for a split NYC second. You're not in compliance with the law. If you keep any part of it you're obligated to all of it per Gal 5:3.

And we all would agree that-- the rebellious child could easily say to his/her parents "first you must be perfect then you may tell me to Honor my Father and Mother as God instructed in the Bible" -- but of course -- that is "old news"

 

[BobRyan]

bobryan,

1. You can disagree all you want but you cannot answer to why Paul said that sabbath was a shadow of things to come w

1. Paul was speaking of the annual Sabbaths - they were instituted from the start such that they are only celebrated via "sacrifice and offering" -- making them shadows of the coming of Christ.

2. Paul said nothing at all to identify the weekly Sabbath and even the annual Sabbaths are not being condemned in Col 2.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

An example of NOT condemning eating OR drinking or remembering God's Ten-Commandment creation-Sabbath day to keep it holy. Rather Col 2 condemns the "commandments of men" - (as is so carefully avoided in the quotes we often see from Col 2)

Col 2 is opposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

 

[jerry kelso]

1. Paul was speaking of the annual Sabbaths - they were instituted from the start such that they are only celebrated via "sacrifice and offering" -- making them shadows of the coming of Christ.

2. Paul said nothing at all to identify the weekly Sabbath and even the annual Sabbaths are not being condemned in Col 2.

bobryan,

1. Paul didn't specify the weekly sabbath being omitted out of Colossians 2:15-16.

2. The seventh day of creation was a day of rest and not actually called the sabbath.

3. Exodus 16:23 was the first mention of the sabbath in conjunction with the gathering of the manna.
Now the seventh day was called the sabbath.
A few weeks later the Ten Commandments were given was remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. This remembrance was to the giving of manna in Exodus 16:23 and not the creation sabbath. The seventh day of creation was a shadow. Exodus 20:11 proves the seventh day turns to sabbath.
There is nowhere in the scripture that God found any fault with anyone not observing the sabbath before Israel. It is synomonous with Israel and a sign of the Mosaic covenant Exodus 31:13; Ezekiel 20:12, 19-21. It was binding on Jews and never really abrogated, changed or transferred to another day of the week as a Jewish ordinance. It is in abeyance according to Hosea 2:11.
If want to live in Judaism you have to live in every respect that they did under Moses law.

4. The Jewish sabbath was not changed to the Christian sabbath anymore because Han circumcision was changed to baptism.
John 20:1, 19, Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2 show she that after the resurrection Jesus and his disciples met on the first day of the week which was Sunday the resurrection Jesus was still in the grave on the Saturday sabbath.
The first day is prefigured in the Old Testament as the eighth day and is typified by the firstfruits.
Your creation scenario and ssdo for the church is wrong.
Colossians 2 will be a memorial of feasts of the Passover which is a future shadow right now connected to Israel and will be a reality connected to Israel's earthly calling.
Also, in the early church the gentiles went to the synagogue on the sabbath to hear the gospel not to observe the Jewish sabbath. Jerry kelso

 

[BobRyan]

bobryan,

1. Paul didn't specify the weekly sabbath being omitted out of Colossians 2:15-16.

1. He referenced "shadow Sabbaths" - shadows in offering and sacrifices that Hebrews 10 says are ended at the cross. This is only true of the annual Sabbaths in Lev 23 -

And even in Col 2 Paul does not say they have ended - merely that judging between observant Christians was wrong just like it was before the cross in Matt 7 according to Christ. No change.

2. I notice that you ignore every text in Col 2 showing that the context is all about condemning made made commands and traditions - and not at all condemning the Word of God. Are you ignoring those texts because you POV "needs" to?

for example -- Col 2 that needs to be ignored??

Paul is NOT condemning eating OR drinking or remembering God's Ten-Commandment creation-Sabbath day to keep it holy. Rather Col 2 condemns the "commandments of men" - (as is so carefully avoided in the quotes we often see from Col 2)

Col 2 is opposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

3. The seventh day of creation was a day of rest - that is blessed and sanctified just as Christ said and just as Ex 20:11 states in reference to the Genesis 2 event. This is irrefutable.

4. Exodus 16:23 is proof that the 7th day Sabbath is on a very specific day - and is the second mention of the sabbath after Genesis 2.

5. Even the majority of your own pro-Sunday scholars admit that it is binding in Eden before the fall of mankind.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism

It just does not get any easier than this

 

[BobRyan]

There is nowhere in the scripture that God found any fault with anyone not observing the sabbath before Israel.

God never charges anyone with taking God's name in vain - before Exodus 20 or in all of the NT. Please don't "event" rules for deleting the Word of God.

It is synomonous with Israel and a sign of the Mosaic covenant Exodus 31:13; Ezekiel 20:12, 19-21

Is 56:1-8 it is for gentiles in even the OT.

Is 66:23 it is for "all mankind" for all eternity after the cross.

Mark 2:27 it was MADE when mankind was made just as we see in Genesis 1-2.

Bible details "matter"

4. The Jewish sabbath was not changed to the Christian sabbath anymore because Han circumcision was changed to baptism.

No text says that baptism replaces circumcision in OT or NT - and we all know it.

Here again - Bible details "matter".

Your creation scenario and ssdo for the church is wrong.

Just not in real life.

in real life not only is the commandment unchanged but it is kept for all eternity after the cross as we see in Isaiah 66:23 - by all mankind.

Even in the NT we have example after example of Sabbath after Sabbath gospel preaching attended by both gentiles and Jews. NOT ONE example of that for week-day-1 worship services.

And we all know it.

 

[BobRyan]

Catholic answers - address this question about "changing" the Sabbath from one day to another.

"Seventh-day Adventists insist that the Catholic Church has no scriptural warrant for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Is this true?"
http://www.catholic.com/quickquesti...im-that-the-sabbath-shouldnt-have-been-change

Catholic Answers sets the record straight with some wishful thinking added in at the last?

"While it is true that there is no New Testament record of a voice from the heavens instructing the infant Church, "Thou shalt change the day of thy worship and rest from Saturday to Sunday," Adventists are mistaken in their belief that there is no New Testament evidence that supports such a change by the Catholic Church. Quite apart from the biblical proof of the apostolic Church’s authority to teach in God’s name (Mt 16:18–19, 18:17–18, Lk 10:16) and of God’s guarantee that this teaching would never fall into error (Mt 28:19–20, Lk 22:32, Jn 16:13), there is an impressive amount of evidence from Scripture that Christ and the apostles changed their day of corporate worship from Saturday to Sunday."

(that quote was also from the same link as posted above)

They "of course" fail to find even ONE text saying

"from week day one to week-day one shall all mankind come before Me to worship" as we have in Is 66:23 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath.

"Week-day one was made for mankind.. the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" as we have in Mark 2:27-28 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

"Remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" as we have in Ex 20:8 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

"week day 1 is the Holy day of the Lord" as we have in Isaiah 58:13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

"the next week day 1 - nearly the entire town came together to hear Gospel preaching" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath.

"they kept asking that the Gospel be presented to them again on the next week day 1" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

" 4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every week day 1 and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks." as we have in Acts 18:4 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

"the first day is the Lord's day" as we have for the Bible Sabbath in Ex 20:10 and in Is 58:13.

Recall that the "Sabbath" designation for the Bible 7th day Sabbath is often found in the NT. But not once do we find "Lord's day" for week-day-1 or "the new Christian Sabbath" as the term for week-day-1 in the NT.

Sooooo - -lacking all of that "actual evidence".

The link above will simply have to "settle" for some hope of finding a hint that maybe and event EVER happened on week-day-1 and was a worship service. The search is on at that site to find such evidence!

The fact that they did claim to make such a change is not only supported by the "Catholic Answers" article - but also discussed on this thread starting here --
Apr 8, 2015 #1

With proof posted many places on other threads -- including
Oct 3, 2015 #387

 

[jerry kelso]

1. He referenced "shadow Sabbaths" - shadows in offering and sacrifices that Hebrews 10 says are ended at the cross. This is only true of the annual Sabbaths in Lev 23 -

And even in Col 2 Paul does not say they have ended - merely that judging between observant Christians was wrong just like it was before the cross in Matt 7 according to Christ. No change.

2. I notice that you ignore every text in Col 2 showing that the context is all about condemning made made commands and traditions - and not at all condemning the Word of God. Are you ignoring those texts because you POV "needs" to?

3. The seventh day of creation was a day of rest - that is blessed and sanctified just as Christ said and just as Ex 20:11 states in reference to the Genesis 2 event. This is irrefutable.

4. Exodus 16:23 is proof that the 7th day Sabbath is on a very specific day - and is the second mention of the sabbath after Genesis 2.

5. Even the majority of your own pro-Sunday scholars admit that it is binding in Eden before the fall of mankind.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism

It just does not get any easier than this

bobryan,

It is easy when you are more into your opinion and conviction.
I gave you scripture to prove you wrong and have explained the proper context and why your position is wrong.
You never rebut but just keep giving your limited amount of scriptures thinking it is sufficient and it Israel not.

2. Messianic Jews believe is for Jews culturally and has never been changed but they do not believe the ssdo is mandatory for the gentiles.

3. Creation's 7th day and the sabbath for the Jews other being on Saturday is not the argument.
The point was that creation's seventh day was a shadow to Exodus 16:23 when the word sabbath was used for the gathering of manna.
Exodus 20:8 was in reference to Exodus 16:23. There was was no gathering of manna at creation's seventh day. This shows you either overlook, don't understand, or ignore what I am saying.
Who said they were my scholars? That is your words. I agree with much of what they say but not necessarily everything. Of course you get what I say wrong you probably do the same with them. You are wrong again as usual. Jerry kelso

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

+ . +

=.

Messianic Jews believe is for Jews culturally and has never been changed but they do not believe the ssdo is mandatory for the gentiles.

Do true followers of the Lamb put ANY stock in whether anyone else's belief pertains to them- or not? ZERO. Their conviction and practice come from the word of God, rather than the doctrine of man. In fact, that is the difference between the decieved and the true, the seal or the mark. AND, there are several Messianics here who don't claim that at all. If they thought it did, they wouldn't be on the Adventist forum in collaboration with converted Gentiles on Sabbath worship. They would be on here offended that we keep it.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Love the emoticon analogy...

 

[BobRyan]

bobryan,

1. Paul didn't specify the weekly sabbath being omitted out of Colossians 2:15-16.

1. He referenced "shadow Sabbaths" - shadows in offering and sacrifices that Hebrews 10 says are ended at the cross. This is only true of the annual Sabbaths in Lev 23 -

And even in Col 2 Paul does not say they have ended - merely that judging between observant Christians was wrong just like it was before the cross in Matt 7 according to Christ. No change.

2. I notice that you ignore every text in Col 2 showing that the context is all about condemning made made commands and traditions - and not at all condemning the Word of God. Are you ignoring those texts because you POV "needs" to?

for example -- Col 2 that needs to be ignored??

Paul is NOT condemning eating OR drinking or remembering God's Ten-Commandment creation-Sabbath day to keep it holy. Rather Col 2 condemns the "commandments of men" - (as is so carefully avoided in the quotes we often see from Col 2)

Col 2 is opposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

3. The seventh day of creation was a day of rest - that is blessed and sanctified just as Christ said and just as Ex 20:11 states in reference to the Genesis 2 event. This is irrefutable.

4. Exodus 16:23 is proof that the 7th day Sabbath is on a very specific day - and is the second mention of the sabbath after Genesis 2.

5. Even the majority of your own pro-Sunday scholars admit that it is binding in Eden before the fall of mankind.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism

It just does not get any easier than this

bobryan,

It is easy when you are more into your opinion and conviction.

The above facts that I presented from Col 2 - are "in the text" you can't re-imagine all of Col 2 for us as "merely BobRyan's published opinion" -- and I think we all know it.

I gave you scripture to prove you wrong

Indeed you redirected the conversation away from Col 2 when it appeared you could not sustain an eisegesis of just one tiny snip-text from Col 2 -- because the chapter is in fact not attacking scripture.. it is attacking the commandments of men the "doctrines of man" - as Paul himself says in Col 2.

and have explained the proper context and why your position is wrong.
You never rebut but just keep giving your limited amount of scriptures thinking it is sufficient and it Israel not.

You are the one that brought in Col 2 - now when I point to details in that chapter that don't fit your 1 text reconstruction for the entire chapter - you complain that we are not talking about some "other chapter instead"??

Why don't we pick one of your other references snippet-quote and look at that chapter as its own thread as well?

Even our own pro-Sunday scholars affirm this "all TEN commandments still valid" Bible detail.

 

[BobRyan]

2. Messianic Jews believe is for Jews culturally and has never been changed but they do not believe the ssdo is mandatory for the gentiles.

It may surprise you to learn that we prefer what the Bible says over what you're claiming. However there are Messianic Jews on this very message board proving that your claim is totally false. They join us in admitting that there is only one Bible Sabbath and it is for all mankind.

As do even the majority of your own pro-sunday scholars admit that all TEN of the TEN commandments apply to all mankind as included in the moral law of God.

It just does not get any easier than this - when BOTH sides admit to the one Bible detail that all TEN of the TEN commandments still apply - including the Sabbath commandment.

3. Creation's 7th day and the sabbath for the Jews other being on Saturday is not the argument.
The point was that creation's seventh day was a shadow to Exodus 16:23

Not even remotely true - the Ex 16 and 20 Sabbath comes directly from Genesi 2:1-3 according to God Himself.

when the word sabbath was used for the gathering of manna.

Not even remotely true - Ex 16 does not say 'for six days you shall Sabbath manna but the 7th day you shall not Sabbath manna". As we all know.

Exodus 20:8 was in reference to Exodus 16:23.

Ex 20:11 - points specifically to Genesis 2

There was was no gathering of manna at creation's seventh day.

Irrelevant - Ex 20:11 says Sabbath is holy because of Genesis 2:1-3.
Ex 16 does not say "Sabbath is holy - because of manna" and we all know it.

Bible details matter.

Again this "all TEN still matter" Bible detail - is one that even the majority of your own pro-Sunday scholars will admit to.

Who said they were my scholars?

-- one of us is pro-Sunday and the other is pro-Bible Sabbath. You knew that right?

(or do we find you going around to every other denomination board on CF - opposing their pro-Sunday arguments??? )

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

Ex 16 does not say "Sabbath is holy - because of manna" and we all know it.

That's ok, Bob. Last time it was because they came out of Egypt, or crossed the Red Sea....or something. Twas never because they became God's AND His Sabbath happened to come with it. Lol ! That would line up with scripture too much.

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

Love the emoticon analogy...

I tried to load one off my old website that had the little guy BURST into flames, then all that was left was a smoking black dot with two big ol eyes blinking, but it wouldn't load. Lol

 

[jerry kelso]

+ . +

=.



Do true followers of the Lamb put ANY stock in whether anyone else's belief pertains to them- or not? ZERO. Their conviction and practice come from the word of God, rather than the doctrine of man. In fact, that is the difference between the decieved and the true, the seal or the mark. AND, there are several Messianics here who don't claim that at all. If they thought it did, they wouldn't be on the Adventist forum in collaboration with converted Gentiles on Sabbath worship. They would be on here offended that we keep it.

sabbathkeeper&wife,

1. I have said before that there are different views in most any school of thought in theological realms.

2. Just because many people agree on both sides and seems to be a majority doesn't mean they are right. Majority is not always right when it comes to men.
I believe because of conviction and proper history and hermeneutics and proper full context on the entire subject.
You seem to go on a few scriptures and what it sounds like and just a part instead of the whole among other things and then go to seed on it.


3. If you think you understand context then tell me the context of 1 Corinthians 15:30 when Paul said I die daily? Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

It may surprise you to learn that we prefer what the Bible says over what you're claiming. However there are Messianic Jews on this very message board proving that your claim is totally false. They join us in admitting that there is only one Bible Sabbath and it is for all mankind.

As do even the majority of your own pro-sunday scholars admit that all TEN of the TEN commandments apply to all mankind as included in the moral law of God.

It just does not get any easier than this - when BOTH sides admit to the one Bible detail that all TEN of the TEN commandments still apply - including the Sabbath commandment.



Not even remotely true - the Ex 16 and 20 Sabbath comes directly from Genesi 2:1-3 according to God Himself.



Not even remotely true - Ex 16 does not say 'for six days you shall Sabbath manna but the 7th day you shall not Sabbath manna". As we all know.



Ex 20:11 - points specifically to Genesis 2



Irrelevant - Ex 20:11 says Sabbath is holy because of Genesis 2:1-3.
Ex 16 does not say "Sabbath is holy - because of manna" and we all know it.

Bible details matter.

Again this "all TEN still matter" Bible detail - is one that even the majority of your own pro-Sunday scholars will admit to.


-- one of us is pro-Sunday and the other is pro-Bible Sabbath. You knew that right?

(or do we find you going around to every other denomination board on CF - opposing their pro-Sunday arguments??? )

in Christ,

Bob

bobryan,

1. Let us simplify this.
Since you think you understand what the Bible says you tell me what is the context of 1 Corinthians 15:30 when Paul said I die daily? Jerry kelso

 

[BobRyan]

bobryan,

1. Let us simplify this.
Since you think you understand what the Bible says you tell me what is the context of 1 Corinthians 15:30 when Paul said I die daily? Jerry kelso

Matt 10 says take up your cross daily and follow Me.
1Cor 15:31 provides a similar statement referring to the suffering that Paul goes through as a Christian -
31 I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die. 33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.” 34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- still true definition of sin - even in the NT


1 Cor 9 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached the gospel to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

And 1 Cor 15 29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them? 30 Why are we also in danger every hour?

Paul argues that his being willing to endure suffering has everything to do with saved-vs-lost even as Christ points to this very thing in Matt 10. If there were no resurrection - no eternal life for the saints - then Paul asks - why endure all the suffering and discipline.

 

[jerry kelso]

It may surprise you to learn that we prefer what the Bible says over what you're claiming. However there are Messianic Jews on this very message board proving that your claim is totally false. They join us in admitting that there is only one Bible Sabbath and it is for all mankind.

As do even the majority of your own pro-sunday scholars admit that all TEN of the TEN commandments apply to all mankind as included in the moral law of God.

It just does not get any easier than this - when BOTH sides admit to the one Bible detail that all TEN of the TEN commandments still apply - including the Sabbath commandment.



Not even remotely true - the Ex 16 and 20 Sabbath comes directly from Genesi 2:1-3 according to God Himself.



Not even remotely true - Ex 16 does not say 'for six days you shall Sabbath manna but the 7th day you shall not Sabbath manna". As we all know.



Ex 20:11 - points specifically to Genesis 2



Irrelevant - Ex 20:11 says Sabbath is holy because of Genesis 2:1-3.
Ex 16 does not say "Sabbath is holy - because of manna" and we all know it.

Bible details matter.

Again this "all TEN still matter" Bible detail - is one that even the majority of your own pro-Sunday scholars will admit to.


-- one of us is pro-Sunday and the other is pro-Bible Sabbath. You knew that right?

(or do we find you going around to every other denomination board on CF - opposing their pro-Sunday arguments??? )

in Christ,

Bob

Matt 10 says take up your cross daily and follow Me.
1Cor 15:31 provides a similar statement referring to the suffering that Paul goes through as a Christian -
31 I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die. 33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.” 34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- still true definition of sin - even in the NT


1 Cor 9 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached the gospel to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

And 1 Cor 15 29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them? 30 Why are we also in danger every hour?

Paul argues that his being willing to endure suffering has everything to do with saved-vs-lost even as Christ points to this very thing in Matt 10. If there were no resurrection - no eternal life for the saints - then Paul asks - why endure all the suffering and discipline.

bobryan,

1. I am happy you understand that it was the hope of a physical resurrection and that is why he endured his sufferings.
Many believe it was about Paul dying to sin or crucifying the flesh which it really isn't.

2. 2 Corinthians 4:10: Always bearing about in our bodies the dying of the Lord Jesus that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
Dying daily meant putting their life on the line for the cause of Christ in which they could be killed everyday for the cause of Christ.
Paul said in Roman's 8 believers are like sheep led to the slaughtered every day. Glad we agree on that . Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

It may surprise you to learn that we prefer what the Bible says over what you're claiming. However there are Messianic Jews on this very message board proving that your claim is totally false. They join us in admitting that there is only one Bible Sabbath and it is for all mankind.

As do even the majority of your own pro-sunday scholars admit that all TEN of the TEN commandments apply to all mankind as included in the moral law of God.

It just does not get any easier than this - when BOTH sides admit to the one Bible detail that all TEN of the TEN commandments still apply - including the Sabbath commandment.



Not even remotely true - the Ex 16 and 20 Sabbath comes directly from Genesi 2:1-3 according to God Himself.



Not even remotely true - Ex 16 does not say 'for six days you shall Sabbath manna but the 7th day you shall not Sabbath manna". As we all know.



Ex 20:11 - points specifically to Genesis 2



Irrelevant - Ex 20:11 says Sabbath is holy because of Genesis 2:1-3.
Ex 16 does not say "Sabbath is holy - because of manna" and we all know it.

Bible details matter.

Again this "all TEN still matter" Bible detail - is one that even the majority of your own pro-Sunday scholars will admit to.


-- one of us is pro-Sunday and the other is pro-Bible Sabbath. You knew that right?

(or do we find you going around to every other denomination board on CF - opposing their pro-Sunday arguments??? )

in Christ,

Bob

bobryan,

1. I have always said that most every theological system has different views on certain things whether Jewish or gentile including Messianic and evangelicals etc.

2. Majority is not always right.

3. I never said that the moral laws and the one that isn't a moral law which is the sabbath wasn't in effect. I said they were not in effect of the Mosaic law and its ethic etc. for it was abolished at the cross 2 Corinthians 3:13. It is now under the auspices of the new covenant. You misunderstood this and probably still don't understand the whole context.

4. You completely mis understood the context of what I said and what the Bible context of Exodus 16:23 & 20:11 in conjunction with the seventh day of creation.

3. In Genesis 2 theventh day is rest but not called the sabbath.
Exodus 16:22 talks about the 6th day to make bread for the 7th day. The sabbath appears to start the sabbath in the phrase; tomorrow is the rest of the sabbath talking about the seventh day.
With that aside. Verse 28 says unto Moses; how long refuse yes to keep my commandments and my laws?

4. Verse 29: SEE FOR THE LORD Has "GIVEN YOU THE SABBATH"
Creation Seventh day was not made for man. It was because God had rested from his work of creation.
Jesus said in Mark 2:27; the sabbath was made for man.
The creation Seventh day was for God and Exodus 16:29 the sabbath was given for man from the Lord.
Why was it given to man? Deuteronomy 5:15: And remember that thou a servant in the land of Egypt and that the Lord thy God brought thee out of thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: "THEREFORE THE LORD THY GOD COMMANDED THEE TO KEEP THE SABBATH DAY"!
Exodus 20:8: Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. This is according to Exodus 16:29-30 when the Lord gave the sabbath day to man which was the day to rest.
Exodus 20:11: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is and "RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY" wherefore the Lord Blessed the Sabbath Day and hallowed it.
The seventh day is creation sabbath. Blessing the Sabbath was Exodus 16:29-30 given to man as a day of rest.
There are arguments for creation being actual 24 hour days etc. thus making the Jewish sabbath and others disagree.
Being the same day or not is irrelevant in the fact that it was about rest.
God gave rest to man in the Jewish sabbath not creation and this is why creation's Seventh day was a shadow of the Jewish sabbath which became the reality.
Even if you call creation's Seventh day the sabbath it still would not dismiss the fact that creation's da of rest was for God and not man. It was given to man in the Jewish sabbath. This is very plain and the true context.

5. For the new covenant believer we are to not forsake the assembling of ourselves but there is no where said we have to keep the Jewish sabbath. I have already proved that by the firstfruits being the resurrection because Christ was in the grave on sabbath and arose on the eighth day which was resurrection destroys the ssdo theory.
I will stop here and let you try to digest that. Jerry kelso

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

the Mosaic law and its ethic etc. for it was abolished at the cross 2 Corinthians 3:13.

No! Not <<the Mosaic law and its ethic etc.>>, but the Divine Law in His all-encompassing ethical Mandate! For "Christ is the End of the Law" having been That End "in his own body", "nailed to the cross ... taken out of the way"!

Or is Moses your saviour and your standard of what <ethic> is?

As long as one can jippo obligation, convenience's brand is superficiality, and comfort's, cowardice.