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col 2:16 the accurate interpretation and the final word on the text

Adventist Dissident

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A lot here, will take a while, but let me clarify my position, I believe Paul is talking about QUALIFICATION OF BELIEVERS, the whole circumcision argument is about qualifications. the question is for what? In Acts 15, the complaint comes from Jerusalem, where they were concerned about qualifications. In Col 2 it is the same argument and in Gal it is the same argument, there is a consistancy, you are qualified in Christ by your faith in Christ promise & performance not by your Promise & performance. that is the same argument made in Gal 3 Promise of Abraham vs your performance in the Mosaic Covenant. Are you aware that the Covenant of Creation and Moses are a specific type of covenant, they are performance based covenants called suzerainty covenant, and that Noah's, Abraham's, David's & the New Covenant are Royal Grant Covenants? so when paul make the statement in Gal 3 about the law coming 430 years later not making void the promise, he is referring to the legal arrangement of the covenant NOT the Substance of the Law. Now referring back to Acts 15, when they were makeing the recommendation as to what to impose on the gentiles, they were not talking about doing away with the Law of Moses, Moses was read in the synagogue "week to week" . BUT WERE TALKING ABOUT NOT OFFENDING THERE JEWISH HOSTS. REMEMBER THE COMPLAINT IS FROM CERTIAN BROTHER FROM JERUSALEM. WHERE THEY PRACTICE THE LAW.

13After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Brethren, listen to me. 14“Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15“With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,

16‘AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,

17SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,
AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,’

18SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.
19“Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are TRUNING TO GOD FROM AMOUNG THE GENTILES

20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.21“For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” that is not talking about abandoning the sabbath it is talking about keeping it. I am out of time for today. I didn't get to everything, so I will be back later
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Tall, I want to make a request that you don't dump pages and pages of arguments at one time. You need to make 1 argument per post and keep it short. If you have more then one argument put it in a second post and a third if necessary. It make it very diffuicult to respond to your post. Smaller posts are more effective and less confusing. I would rather have 12 different post to respond to then 1 or 2 MASSIVE Dissertation to scroll through. The larger it is the harder it is to respond to.
 
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Kirsten

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How does someone 'observe the Sabbath' exactly?
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Going back to Acts 15 for a minute, James Quotes Amos 9:11,12. It is a prophecy about the rebuilding of the tabernacle of David. This was prophecy about the Northern Tribes being brought back in to the covenant after being exiled by Assyria. That poses a major problem for those who say it is only about gentiles. Which bring up another point, I not sure where I read this it might have been in Gal. but one of the words that is translated gentiles is the word uncircumcised, this could be gentile, or uncircumcised Jew.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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How does someone 'observe the Sabbath' exactly?
that goes back to meaning and purpose. I have come up the a clearer understanding. It is about Rest. What ever leads to rest is acceptable to do on the Sabbath. So what dose Rest mean. It is the Ideal like that God has for you after order has been brought out of Chaos and all the Enemies have been defeated. The most perfect example of Rest is the Garden of Eden. Every thing was in submission to God, in harmony, happiness & Peace. So anything that creates a greater Garden of Eden Experiance is acceptable Any thing that destroys that experiance is not.
 
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Kirsten

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I thought we were supposed to rest in Him at all times.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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I thought we were supposed to rest in Him at all times.
Ok, it looks to me you are playing a game. You ask about how keep sabbath then you want to change the subject to our personal relationship with God. You need to expand you, rest is the ideal, the only way to achieve the ideal is to be submitted to Christ and trust him. There is no conflict between the 2 ideas. Rest in Christ and Rest of the sabbath are the exact same thing, one is applied to a person and their relationship with God, the other is to a time and a space, that God invites people to enter to encounter him and be refreshed and changed.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Built Up in Christ



1For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh; 2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

Alive in Christ

6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21(Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Blue =Greek Ideas
Green = Hebrew Ideas
 
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Adventist Dissident

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How do you interpret the food and drink portion?

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
upon considering this question, I believe food & drink is an improper translation, meat or drink is correct, it could be referring to the meat & drink offering, again Jewish
 
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tall73

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upon considering this question, I believe food & drink is an improper translation, meat or drink is correct, it could be referring to the meat & drink offering, again Jewish


It looks like you are still replying to the overall material, but I wanted to follow up on this a bit.

If you take the meat and drink to be offerings, do you think the people being written to were sacrificing or not sacrificing?
 
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Adventist Dissident

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It looks like you are still replying to the overall material, but I wanted to follow up on this a bit.

If you take the meat and drink to be offerings, do you think the people being written to were sacrificing or not sacrificing?
uncertian, haven't put much thought into it.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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upon considering this question, I believe food & drink is an improper translation, meat or drink is correct, it could be referring to the meat & drink offering, again Jewish
if there is something in the reply that I have missed please copy it and repost it.
 
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Dave-W

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IMO "Lord's Day" (referring to sunday) was a gross misunderstanding of the term by the Greek speaking early church fathers. In Rev 1.10, the word "Lord's" is NOT a noun in the genitive (possessive) case; rather it is an adjective, as in "Lordy day." That could refer to any day of the week. OTOH "Lord's" day (in the genitive/ possessive case) is a direct reference to the day of judgement and destruction. (given the amount of foretold destruction works for Rev 1.10 also)

So I would NEVER take "the Lord's day" to mean sunday. EVER.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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I agree DaveW... Matt 12:8, Mark 2:28 and Luke 6:5 all reference what day is claimed by the Lord. This is what John would have known...
 
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I agree DaveW... Matt 12:8, Mark 2:28 and Luke 6:5 all reference what day is claimed by the Lord. This is what John would have known...
you clearly have not made an attempt to do you home work on this topic.
 
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I agree DaveW... Matt 12:8, Mark 2:28 and Luke 6:5 all reference what day is claimed by the Lord. This is what John would have known...
The term Lord's day came about as a direct way to distinguish it from Sunday. Just like Sabbath is not Saturday,& just like those who worship on Sabbath do not worship Saturn, so those who celebrate the FESTIVAL of the Lord's day are not worshiping the Sun. The Lord's day came about by the need to solve a problem that arose in Rome. The riots of the Jews in the late 40's. It was chosen theologically because it was on the day of first fruits and Pentecost (the day after the Sabbath , or the 8th day or the 1st day of the week or Sunday) Christ rose from the dead and the Holy Spirit was poured out. The 7th day in Judaism is a day of rest (no work and no food preparation) and the 8th day is the day of New beginnings. it was considered a FESTIVAL not a Sabbath. It was never a replacement for the sabbath, just like the festivals in the bible are not a replacement for the sabbath. The replacement issue came when Sylvester I transfered the holiness of the Sabbath to the Lord's day.
 
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