Coincidences?

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

YOU arn't scared of such an event because YOU don't believe in God.

Not believing in an evil/incompetent diety who destroyed nearly all life on earth with a worldwide flood in a fit of pique because he botched his creation and it didn't turn out the way he thought it should and ordered the massacres of countless people by his "chosen people" after the flood and not believing in God are two different things.

Good point--- but it is true that hundreds of sacred douments and texts from many religions mention a gigantic flood somewhere. If the people at that time were scattered over the planet- how did they all manage to write about a similar flood?

Because civilizations developed around rivers and oceans and great floods occasionally occur in such areas. The ancient Egyptians set their calendars by flooding of the Nile for example. There are also widespread myths about people that turn into animals in many cultures. I hope you stay off the moors when the moon is full.

What you will see if you read this thread and so many others that give clear falsifications of the worldwide flood myth is that YECs have no answer to the many falsifications of the flood and can only start quoting scripture when they are brought up. If the worldwide flood were not a myth there should be answers to the falsifications from paleontology, geology, biodiversity, biogeography and those other facts of science that falsify the myth of a worldwide flood. There are none because the worldwide flood recorded in Genesis is a myth. It may well have been based on some large local flood but it was not worldwide.

If you disagree, how about some answers to the facts on the fossil record presented in this thread?

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Jet Black]

God was at a point where he couldn't go back- Satan had gotten a grasp on the world- and God wasn't going to let generations of man to be misled-the world couldn't be saved without taking some extreme action.

he couldn't go back? would this be the omnipotent creator of the universe that we are talking about?

 

[Revelation 22:21]

Not believing in an evil/incompetent diety who destroyed nearly all life on earth with a worldwide flood in a fit of pique because he botched his creation and it didn't turn out the way he thought it should and ordered the massacres of countless people by his "chosen people" after the flood and not believing in God are two different things.

Whoa-- his creation went wrong? You certainly have that correct- the "creation" went wrong. And it was "his". But it wasn't his fault-- satan had corrupted the world- the people had to reject satan- which they did not- and they embraced sin- and had turned away from god.

Because civilizations developed around rivers and oceans and great floods occasionally occur in such areas. The ancient Egyptians set their calendars by flooding of the Nile for example. There are also widespread myths about people that turn into animals in many cultures. I hope you stay off the moors when the moon is full.

What you will see if you read this thread and so many others that give clear falsifications of the worldwide flood myth is that YECs have no answer to the many falsifications of the flood and can only start quoting scripture when they are brought up. If the worldwide flood were not a myth there should be answers to the falsifications from paleontology, geology, biodiversity, biogeography and those other facts of science that falsify the myth of a worldwide flood. There are none because the worldwide flood recorded in Genesis is a myth. It may well have been based on some large local flood but it was not worldwide.

If you disagree, how about some answers to the facts on the fossil record presented in this thread?

The Frumious Bandersnatch

I've herd of caves and things like that containg fossils of all types of animals- which had died at about the same time. It is believed that they were stacked by a massive flood.-
Hundreds of different cultures have stories of a massive flood. Am I to assume that every culture and different group of people (which were all over the world) had a local flood around them that they could write about?

 

[Revelation 22:21]

he couldn't go back? would this be the omnipotent creator of the universe that we are talking about?

Yea, God should have warped back in time to re-do everything. I wonder why he didn't-- I'll have to ask him that one.
It was God's work-- but it was Satan at work.

 

[Jet Black]

I've herd of caves and things like that containg fossils of all types of animals- which had died at about the same time. It is believed that they were stacked by a massive flood.-
Hundreds of different cultures have stories of a massive flood. Am I to assume that every culture and different group of people (which were all over the world) had a local flood around them that they could write about?

stacked..... very very neatly stacked with not a single bone, tooth or plant out of place, pretty good job for a flood that simultaneously destroyed entire civilisations, carved out mountains, but didn't disturb nests full of eggs.

 

[Jet Black]

Whoa-- his creation went wrong? You certainly have that correct- the "creation" went wrong. And it was "his". But it wasn't his fault-- satan had corrupted the world.

It wasn't his fault eh? So where did satan come from?

 

[troodon]

I've herd of caves and things like that containg fossils of all types of animals

Considering such a cave would destroy the entire point of this thread I would love to see some sources for this. Without them I must admit that I doubt the existance of such caves.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Whoa-- his creation went wrong? You certainly have that correct- the "creation" went wrong. And it was "his". But it wasn't his fault-- satan had corrupted the world- the people had to reject satan- which they did not- and they embraced sin- and had turned away from god.

Ah the old Satan excuse again. Everyone corrupted by Satan and God too imcompetent to prevent it so he had to destroy the world with a flood killing off women, childern, unborn babies and most of the animal life. Have you ever thought this through? It is total nonsense just like the rest of YEC.

I've herd of caves and things like that containg fossils of all types of animals- which had died at about the same time. It is believed that they were stacked by a massive flood.-

Evidence please.

Hundreds of different cultures have stories of a massive flood. Am I to assume that every culture and different group of people (which were all over the world) had a local flood around them that they could write about?

There have undoubtably been thousands and thousands of great local floods in the history of man. There are river valleys that flood virtually every year, Hurricanes and Typhoons can cause massive floods and coastal areas suffer tsunamis after earthquakes and tales grow in the telling. Primative people tend to consider their world the whole world but many of the stories are about large local floods. Most of these myths are very different than the Noah flood. Are we to believe that people who are all descended from the same family that survived a worldwide flood caused by a vindictive God somehow developed hundreds of different myths and religious traditions within a short time afterwards? There are also widespread folk myths about walking dead and people turning into animals. This does not mean that Dracula versus the Wolfman was based on real events.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Revelation 22:21]

Sorry for the late reply- I was really looking for that article about the cave thing--- I saw it about 2 years ago and I remember it being on some small website. I can't seem to find it-- but i'll keep looking- and if I find it i'll post ASAP.

Ah the old Satan excuse again. Everyone corrupted by Satan and God too imcompetent to prevent it so he had to destroy the world with a flood killing off women, childern, unborn babies and most of the animal life. Have you ever thought this through? It is total nonsense just like the rest of YEC.

Ah the old "Satan excuse" excuse.
There is a thin and obvious line between what is good and what is bad- from honesty and truthfulness- to lying and rape- murder- genocide. Heres my point-- what is honesty and truthfulness without the rape murder and genocide? We can only know how good something is by its evil counter part- and how evil something is by its good counterpart. What is life without death--- life would be meaningless without death- it would be worthless if it never ended. What is heaven without hell to back it up-- it makes it worth something. Heaven is the "good" place- and hell is the "bad" place-- they balance eachother out. Why did God wipe out all the little cutie women and children- who were so innocent-- sitting in their cribs making you want to eat them (not literally- and i'm talking about the babies and children- not the women lol)- they didn't know anything- why kill them?
The children would all have been corrupted- changed into grown liars- and murderers- sinners. Even Hitler was once a baby- sitting on his mommy's lap- in a rocker- with a bottle in his mouth- and a little bib with a tug boat on it around his neck- cuddling a teddy bear in his arms. I didn't see him wearing that bib while he commanded the german army to attack poland and capture the Jews. What if all the people during Noahs time had been corrupted- not one good man alive- all worshipping idols and indulgeing in sin? What would heaven be? What would be good and what would be bad? There would be one side- and everything would be bad--- there would be no balance- and things that were bad would become the norm-- getting worse and worse- God had to wipe the people out to preserve the balance between good and evil--- because when good went- how would they know what was evil. That is why I am here-- as a representive from the other side of the thin line. You can be on either side- it's your choice. Knowledge of good and evil--acquired by adam and eve- given to us----- its a balance. Its not the knowledge of just evil- or just good- its both- because without one another- both would be meaningless.

Evidence please.

Ugggg- like I said- I tried to find it-- and when I do- it goes up ASAP- (and no I am not lying- thats too cheap- AIG does that) but I did find some other stuff-- about how fish scales have fossilized in certain areas-- and they do not usually fossilize--- which gives evidence to a great flood. I can't find good stuff on the flood-- because I can falsify most of it myself. I can't deny the flood-- it tells me so much about today.--I just believe that it happened somewhere- and at sometime.- Nuf said.

There have undoubtably been thousands and thousands of great local floods in the history of man. There are river valleys that flood virtually every year, Hurricanes and Typhoons can cause massive floods and coastal areas suffer tsunamis after earthquakes and tales grow in the telling. Primative people tend to consider their world the whole world but many of the stories are about large local floods. Most of these myths are very different than the Noah flood. Are we to believe that people who are all descended from the same family that survived a worldwide flood caused by a vindictive God somehow developed hundreds of different myths and religious traditions within a short time afterwards? There are also widespread folk myths about walking dead and people turning into animals. This does not mean that Dracula versus the Wolfman was based on real events.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

It is obvious that some of the stories were very similar-- some even mentioned animals boarding a ship like in Noah's story. I know it seems strange that one event could turn into hundreds of stories.
I am reminded of the story of Paul Bunion (forgive spelling)-- the mysterious gigancic lumberjack. Within a few generations of american lumberjack folk tales-- a simple made up mystical lumberjack- grew from normal sized to beyond gigantic-- and from working alone to having a blue steer (or horse- whatever- not sure)- who also became gigantic. He dosn't even exist today-- the story was changed dramatically within a few generations. The bible is many 1000's of years old- and it hasn't changed much- (YES I KNOW SOMETHINGS MIGHT HAVE CHANGED). A divine spririt could have watched over moses and his family- and made sure it reproduced. If the death rate was low- and the families had like 20 children-- it could happen. Think of the mathmatical trick-- multiply 2 a hundred times-- 2x2= 4- 4x4= 8- 8x8= 16- etc- pretty soon your in the thousands-- millions. The biblical account was written down-- and the same story was probably passed down orally- which changed and evolved-- just as Paul Bunions story did.


AGAIN-- SORRY FOR THE DELAY

 

[Evo]

I've said this before but...... I find i have to repeat things around here.

Time is a value like space, it is not absolute. If one twin left earth and flew near the speed of light to another solor system. When he came back 5 of his years later, his twin could have aged something like 30 years. If they both caried a watch and set them exactly to each other, then when they came back there watches would disagree. We know this because Einstiens theory of realtivity predects it and it was proven with atomic clocks flown in space compaired to atomic clocks left on earth.

 

[Valen]

I've said this before but...... I find i have to repeat things around here.
Time is a value like space, it is not absolute. If one twin left earth and flew near the speed of light to another solor system. When he came back 5 of his years later, his twin could have aged something like 30 years. If they both caried a watch and set them exactly to each other, then when they came back there watches would disagree. We know this because Einstiens theory of realtivity predects it and it was proven with atomic clocks flown in space compaired to atomic clocks left on earth.

Yes Einstiens' theory is believable because he study things in the NOW! It is possible for androids. However if humans match the speed of light he will die; his body cannot take that speed.

 

[Valen]

if you are still not convinced did you remember the Shoemaker-Levy comets dropped on Jupiter? It is God's way of "practicing" Himself. What is impossible for man is puny for God!

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

I am not going to respond to most of Revelation's post because it is so off topic for this thread. I shouldn't have replied in this thread in the first place. However

It is obvious that some of the stories were very similar-- some even mentioned animals boarding a ship like in Noah's story. I know it seems strange that one event could turn into hundreds of stories.

Well lots of the stories have people saved from a flood in some kind of boat. Is that a big surprise? Also many of the stories are derivative from the orginal Middle Eastern flood stories. But many of the stories are very different and many describe large local floods.

I think we are not being fair to Troodon's thread here. The point of the thread was to ask YECs to explain how the fossil record and its "coincidental" ordering could have arisen from a worldwide flood. Since YECs have no explanation for the fossil record that is not easily shown to be complete nonsense I can see why they are so desperate to change the subject. If you can find something about this cave you mentioned I would love to hear it. I have heard that it might be in France, if that helps. I have the claim made before but have not yet seen any documentation.

If you want to discuss flood myths why not do it in another thread?

From Valen

if you are still not convinced did you remember the Shoemaker-Levy comets dropped on Jupiter? It is God's way of "practicing" Himself. What is impossible for man is puny for God!

This is also completely off-topic. How about some YEC trying explain the fossil record and it "coincidences". I don't see a single attempt here yet.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Valen]

This is a problem that has been bothering me for some time and I'd like some young earth creationist input on the idea.

Why are certain rock strata so picky in the types of organisms that appear in them; Why is it that not a single fossil of a type of organism alive today has been found in the Burgess Shale of British Columbia? Heck, why hasn't a single vertebrate creature or land dwelling organism been found there? You realize, of course, that if one mammalian molar were to be verified to have been found encased in this formation then the evolutionary timeline as we understand it would be shot, right? And yet, that molar or other piece of damning evidence (there are many possiblilities) has yet to be found. Doesn't any of that strike any YEC as being a tad coincidental?

Next question: why is it that the Morrison Formation in Colorado yields predominantly dinosaur bones? Why are there no living species of mammals or birds or even lizards ever to be found in the Morrison? Also, why is no sea life ever found in the Morrison? The Burgess Shale only yields sea life and yet the Morrison has none. Both formations were underwater for a year, right? So why does one have only extinct, invertebrate, marine life while the other has only extinct, terrestrial, vertebrate fauna? Is that just coincidence or is there some reason to this scheme of things?

Next question: why is it that the Hell Creek Formation of Montana, North Dakota, and South Dakota also yields predominantly dinosaur bones but ones of completely different species (heck, genera)? Wasn't the flood violent enough to carve the Grand Canyon and move the tectonic plates hundreds of miles and other such things? If it was so violent, how come it still couldn't move Morrison dinosaur specimens to Hell Creek and visa versa? Why does the Hell Creek Formation yield almost the exact same type of remains as the Lance Formation in Wyoming and yet has no species overlap whatsoever with the Morrison? If a giant flood created these formations, I'd say that all of this is seeming way to coincidental.

Next question: why is it that in the Green River Formation of Utah, Colorado, and Wyoming, there are no dinosaurs of any sort (unless you count birds )? Instead of dinosaurs and anomalocaris and stegosaurs and things that are found in the other fossil formations I've listed, you find very modern looking animals such as fresh water fish, snakes, birds, primitive bats, turtles, and that type of stuff? If the currents that the Flood wielded could create the Grand Canyon, how come it couldn't drift a single Allosaurus tooth the distance between the Morrison and the Green River formations? Not only are they both in Colorado, they're only 40 miles apart (Grand Canyon is 217 miles in length). Isn't it very coincidental that the Flood could carve a giant canyon farther than it can carry a theropod tooth? Isn't it coincidental that no salt water taxa are known from any of the last three formations I've mentioned? Isn't it coincidental that not a single flowering plant is known from the Morrison yet many are well documented from the Hell Creek and Green River Formations? Jeeze!

I will answer the best I could. Long time ago a group of scientists (I forget their names) tries to reinvestigate the matter concerning who the dinosaurs died because the previous archeologists postulated that a comet hit the earth that covered the earth in a thick layer of cloud disabling the continuity of life. (Maybe comet cause the interior magmas of the earth and rise up evaporating the water. That event triggered the endless rains.) As they check the sites, they noticed that the terrestrial dinosaurs are positioned as trying to go to a higher surface. Their bodies were near to the edges of the true ancient earth thereby trying not to be drowned. As your the flying dinosaurs, in certain point of time they become exhausted because due to lack of food. At a period of time the sky became clear and the waters are returning to the depths of the earth. As for the Grand Canyon the ancient salts combined to certain minerals so the salts were not noticed. But their hypotheses were discredited because it violates the some Darwinian principles... now we know...

 

[Valen]

I will answer the best I could. Long time ago a group of scientists (I forget their names) tries to reinvestigate the matter concerning who the dinosaurs died because the previous archeologists postulated that a comet hit the earth that covered the earth in a thick layer of cloud disabling the continuity of life. (Maybe comet cause the interior magmas of the earth and rise up evaporating the water. That event triggered the endless rains.) As they check the sites, they noticed that the terrestrial dinosaurs are positioned as trying to go to a higher surface. Their bodies were near to the edges of the true ancient earth thereby trying not to be drowned. As your the flying dinosaurs, in certain point of time they become exhausted because due to lack of food. At a period of time the sky became clear and the waters are returning to the depths of the earth. As for the Grand Canyon the ancient salts combined to certain minerals so the salts were not noticed. But their hypotheses were discredited because it violates the some Darwinian principles... now we know...

Also the some of the scientists who made these hypotheses were shot dead.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

I will answer the best I could. Long time ago a group of scientists (I forget their names) tries to reinvestigate the matter concerning who the dinosaurs died because the previous archeologists postulated that a comet hit the earth that covered the earth in a thick layer of cloud disabling the continuity of life. (Maybe comet cause the interior magmas of the earth and rise up evaporating the water. That event triggered the endless rains.) As they check the sites, they noticed that the terrestrial dinosaurs are positioned as trying to go to a higher surface. Their bodies were near to the edges of the true ancient earth thereby trying not to be drowned. As your the flying dinosaurs, in certain point of time they become exhausted because due to lack of food. At a period of time the sky became clear and the waters are returning to the depths of the earth. As for the Grand Canyon the ancient salts combined to certain minerals so the salts were not noticed. But their hypotheses were discredited because it violates the some Darwinian principles... now we know...

Well at least you tried. A comet may have hit earth 65 million years ago and caused or hastened the exinction of the dinosaurs. It left a layer layer of irridium all over the world. The problem is this layer is on top of vast layers of sediments that are supposed to be flood deposits and it does not seem likely that irridium would settle uniforming through the flood waters so either the impact was post flood, all the fossils past the dinosaurs are post flood, and no one noticed it or there never was a worldwide flood.

The hypothesis that this comet impact you talk about led to the formation of the fossil record can be discredited, not because it violates some Darwinian principle but because it totally fails to work. For instance flying dinosaurs are found with other dinosaour and not with modern birds or mammals. Modern flying birds and modern flightless birds are found with other modern animals and not with dinosaurs of any kind.

Millions of dinosaur fossils have been found as have as have huge numbers of the fossils of eocine and miocene mammals but they are never found together and different dinosaur formations have distinctly different dinosaurs as Trodoon pointed out. Only small primative mammals are found with dinosaurs.
http://www.earthlife.net/mammals/evolution.html
Dinosaur fossils are found all over the world, sometimes in the same areas as the fossils of Eocine, Miocene and Pleistocene mammals but never in the same layers.

Of course where dinosaur fossils are found dinosaur nests are also found.

http://www.geocities.com/earthhistory/eggs.htm

Did they carry their nests with them when they were running from the flood?

There are also many millions of fossils of Permian mammal-like reptile found in the Karoo formation in South Africa. Above the layers that contain the last Permian animals there is a layer without fossils and then early Triassic animals appear. The gap represents the Permain-Triassic extinction. How did a flood do this?

Then you have the problem of plants. The first fossils of flowering plants called angiosperms, including grasses and plants like mangrove and water lillies are found above the first fossil of plants like pines and ferns called gymnosperms. Lichens and mosses are found early in the fossil record. Do you think grasses outran ferns? The claim that the burial order resulted from living at different elevations won't work either since gymnosperms and lichens often live high in the mountains and many flowering plants live in swamps.

Then there are problems with sea life which is also stratified. Not a single modern clam or jawed fish is ever found in undistrubed Cambrian sediments. Organisms that live fastened to the bottom of the ocean are found stratifed and many times found in the burrows they lived in during life.
http://www.geocities.com/earthhistory/ff.htm
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/orkney.htm

Trilobites lived in a wide variety of ocean niches and yet they are never found outside the Cambrian
http://www.aloha.net/~smgon/triloecology.htm

Shark's teeth are common fossils because sharks shed them continously and they fall to the bottom. Why are they never found below the layers where the sharks that shed them appear?

These are only a few of the myriad of falsifications that the fossil record provides for "flood sorting" but they are enogh to easily falsify any flood sorting model that I have seen and I think I have seen them all. I am sure Trodoon and others can give you many more examples of fossils that could not have been sorted by your scenario or any other speculation based on a worldwide flood.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Also the some of the scientists who made these hypotheses were shot dead.

Where do you come up with stuff like this? It sounds like total nonsense to me. Got a reference?

There is plenty about the Grand Canyon that falsifies the flood myth. I am sure Mechanical Bliss has some threads on it. I'll look.

The Frumiuos Bandersnatch

 

[Valen]

Where do you come up with stuff like this? It sounds like total nonsense to me. Got a reference?

There is plenty about the Grand Canyon that falsifies the flood myth. I am sure Mechanical Bliss has some threads on it. I'll look.

The Frumiuos Bandersnatch

I will give you a thorough documentaries about it just hang on. Also there were something weird about your statements. But I willl try my best to offer you all the exact detail to each scientists. The information you found seem to link to the false ones. I need more time to offer you exact statements to actually what happened to people who did all these study and statement about the dinosaurs. I myself is in big doubt to some of your statements but anyways hang on... mebbe i need a couple of days to recover it. I hope i can.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

I will give you a thorough documentaries about it just hang on. Also there were something weird about your statements. But I willl try my best to offer you all the exact detail to each scientists. The information you found seem to link to the false ones. I need more time to offer you exact statements to actually what happened to people who did all these study and statement about the dinosaurs. I myself is in big doubt to some of your statements but anyways hang on... mebbe i need a couple of days to recover it. I hope i can.

Take your time. I will be very surprised if you come up with anything better than a YEC version of The Weekly World News.

Meanwhile, I don't think I have presented anything that is false. If you can find any actual evidence that anything I said is false I would like to see it.

I didn't document everything but I can easily find documentation for what I posted and much more that falsifies the claim that a worldwide flood is responsible for the fossil record and I am sure other can provide many, many more.

Perhaps you prefer to "find something weird" about my statements to admitting that you can't possibly refute them and neither can any other YEC.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Revelation 22:21]

Bah sorry for being so off topic--
My teachers always say though (if we lose a whole class block- 1hr 45mins to a interesting conversation-)- its worth the whole class if its a good discussion. Even in my sunday school classes-- we'll forget about the lesson and just talk-- the teachers would rather see this happen.