Coincidence?

[bibleblast]

As a Christian, I've always been taught that nothing happens by chance, that there is no such thing as coincidence. I disagree, and because I would like to challenge anyone who thinks otherwise to a formal debate.

 

[The Nihilist]

Can you outline what you mean a little bit better? Are you saying that you were raised as a determinist?

 

[bibleblast]

I was taught that since God is in control of the universe, nothing can happen by chance. Everything is part of God's plan for our lives.

 

[The Nihilist]

Yes, that sounds terribly infantilizing, doesn't it? I can see why you disagree.

 

[DailyBlessings]

So what, to you, is a "coincidence"? Are we really talking about whether random events occur or not?

 

[EverlastingMan]

Well, technically, nothing is a really "coincidence". Because all events do follow a cause-effect pattern; which is to say there is a reason something happened, but not necessarily a purpose. Not arguing for determinism here.

 

[bibleblast]

In my opinion, God is aware of everything in the universe. He is all powerful, but I believe that there are certain events He chooses not to interfere with. For example, if I'm playing a game of chance with a friend, wouldn't God be showing favorites if He controlled the game so that one of us won and the other lost?

 

[Sojourner<><]

In my opinion, God is aware of everything in the universe. He is all powerful, but I believe that there are certain events He chooses not to interfere with. For example, if I'm playing a game of chance with a friend, wouldn't God be showing favorites if He controlled the game so that one of us won and the other lost?

I see your point and this is something that I've thought about for a long time. Bottom line is there is no such thing as chance. Chance is only a method of predicting the outcome of an event where the underlying causes are not known. If all causes are known, then the effect can be determined precisely.

Does that mean that God has deliberately chosen each individual outcome no matter how seemingly insignificant it is? The question, I think, is invalid. An all-knowing, all-comprehending God should know what is going to happen around every corner. The question should instead be: since all things follow a path of cause and effect, does God choose to intervene and alter this path?

Some would argue that God doesn't take a day off to let His creation run its course as if it were some giant wound up cosmic clock. Yet scripture states that on the seventh day, God rested. That doesn't mean that He is still resting though. I think that He lets the universe run its course until He chooses otherwise.

 

[Emmy]

Dear bibleblast, you know that God has given us freedom to choose our wants, or not to choose our wants. God knows our hearts and all our thoughts and wishes, we know that we can pray, and ask God, for whatever we want. If we belong to God, and have told Him so in all our prayers, if we know Him as our Heavenly Father, then all our doings, sayings and happenings, are in God`s Care. The outcome can only be God`s will for us, not coincidence or bad luck. A true believer would not gamble and ask to win, because we know that God has many better ways to help us, neither would we ask for anything, which would bring discredit to God or Man. I say this humbly and with love, bibleblast, and send greetings. Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[bibleblast]

I'm not talking about gambling, or whether God is "on break." I simply believe, as I said before, that God may CHOOSE not to directly control certain aspects of our lives at certain times. I do not believe in "luck." I know there are no charms or curses to make thing go good or bad for a person. As far as cause and effect is concerned, I believe that, although every effect has a cause, whether that cause is controlled by God is sometimes hard to tell. Also, it is sometimes impossible to look at a cause and predict the effect, and vice-versa.

 

[billwald]

Determinism has been a dead theory for a hundred years, since quantum mechanics. There are random factors built into this universe by God.

 

[Sojourner<><]

Determinism has been a dead theory for a hundred years, since quantum mechanics. There are random factors built into this universe by God.

But aren't there still a few holding out for a hidden variable theory? Einstein was never fully convinced so I suppose there could be reason to doubt. I thought string theory was supposed to explain those hidden variables by showing that space has more than 3 dimensions, tightly curled up and hidden, which would account for the 'random' movement of particles.

 

[JGL53]

I can understand indeterminism on the microscopic level. I have trouble understanding it on the macroscopic level. I think that the macroscopic world is indeterminate for humans because of the infinite number of variables - whether it is so for a supposed god or Maxwell's Demon - that is not so clear to me.

I look at the theory of macroscopic determinism as sensible, even though a mind or consciousness can never grasp this, with the belief we all have in our heads of the concept of "free will" thereby actually being a delusion or misperception - the delusion itself being deterministic, of course. I don't see why that could not and should not be so - even though I suffer from the illusion of "free will" as much as the next person and will do so until the day I die.

The converse, that "free will" is real, not only means an indeterminate universe, but a magical universe wherein decision making by humans is a magical force that just pops up out of absolute nothingness.

I think maybe this was the way Einstein saw it - I could be wrong though.

 

[in2Nas]

I'm not talking about gambling, or whether God is "on break." I simply believe, as I said before, that God may CHOOSE not to directly control certain aspects of our lives at certain times. I do not believe in "luck." I know there are no charms or curses to make thing go good or bad for a person. As far as cause and effect is concerned, I believe that, although every effect has a cause, whether that cause is controlled by God is sometimes hard to tell. Also, it is sometimes impossible to look at a cause and predict the effect, and vice-versa.

What? What sources are you using for this theory?

 

[Sojourner<><]

I'm not talking about gambling, or whether God is "on break." I simply believe, as I said before, that God may CHOOSE not to directly control certain aspects of our lives at certain times. I do not believe in "luck." I know there are no charms or curses to make thing go good or bad for a person. As far as cause and effect is concerned, I believe that, although every effect has a cause, whether that cause is controlled by God is sometimes hard to tell. Also, it is sometimes impossible to look at a cause and predict the effect, and vice-versa.

I agree, but this doesn't mean that God doesn't perform miracles.

 

[JGL53]

I agree, but this doesn't mean that God doesn't perform miracles.

Of course - and this is why animistic theories of reality seem so scary to me, i.e., literally anything can happen at any moment, and there is no rational method to predict anything whatsoever.

Since humans are fallible AND we never have more a finite data base to work with, out of an infinite number of variables, some a priori assumption or some kind of "faith", if you will, is required as axiomatic.

So -WHY would one thus chose to believe essentially in magic, i.e., believe in a magical world (like the Harry Potter one)? How does one distinguish a naked belief in such a reality from schizophrenia or some similar unhealthy mental state?

 

[Sojourner<><]

I can understand indeterminism on the microscopic level. I have trouble understanding it on the macroscopic level. I think that the macroscopic world is indeterminate for humans because of the infinite number of variables - whether it is so for a supposed god or Maxwell's Demon - that is not so clear to me.

I look at the theory of macroscopic determinism as sensible, even though a mind or consciousness can never grasp this, with the belief we all have in our heads of the concept of "free will" thereby actually being a delusion or misperception - the delusion itself being deterministic, of course. I don't see why that could not and should not be so - even though I suffer from the illusion of "free will" as much as the next person and will do so until the day I die.

The converse, that "free will" is real, not only means an indeterminate universe, but a magical universe wherein decision making by humans is a magical force that just pops up out of absolute nothingness.

I think maybe this was the way Einstein saw it - I could be wrong though.

What is free will? Is the human will subject to cause like a tree being blown about the wind? I think not. The difference lies in understanding. Where the will of a mind has understanding of a cause, it has the ability to exert itself upon that cause: a mind without understanding is blown about by the wind but the mind that understands the wind can use a sail to harness it. Understanding is freedom.

 

[Sojourner<><]

Of course - and this is why animistic theories of reality seem so scary to me, i.e., literally anything can happen at any moment, and there is no rational method to predict anything whatsoever.

Since humans are fallible AND we never have more a finite data base to work with, out of an infinite number of variables, some a priori assumption or some kind of "faith", if you will, is required as axiomatic.

So -WHY would one thus chose to believe essentially in magic, i.e., believe in a magical world (like the Harry Potter one)? How does one distinguish a naked belief in such a reality from schizophrenia or some similar unhealthy mental state?

I think that to say that one believes in 'magic' is really a simple way of saying that one doesn't hold a uniformitarian view of reality. The belief that the elementary constants that govern everything that we experience are not subject to change themselves is really just an unverifiable assumption.

 

[JGL53]

What is free will? Is the human will subject to cause like a tree being blown about the wind? I think not. The difference lies in understanding. Where the will of a mind has understanding of a cause, it has the ability to exert itself upon that cause: a mind without understanding is blown about by the wind but the mind that understands the wind can use a sail to harness it. Understanding is freedom.

What is "free will"? Reread my post. It only seems a delusion. Nothing is free. Your decisions are ultimately so based in contingency and happenstance and circumstance, how could you have chosen other than you did?

We can't go back in time and allow you to decide another way and see how that works out. That is a thought experiment that is as impossible as throwing a rock at the moon and actually hitting it.

Free will as normally defined makes no sense. Go ahead and try to give us a convincing definition if you think you can. LOL.

 

[JGL53]

I think that to say that one believes in 'magic' is really a simple way of saying that one doesn't hold a uniformitarian view of reality. The belief that the elementary constants that govern everything that we experience are not subject to change themselves is really just an unverifiable assumption.

All is change - the only permanent feature of experienced reality IS change. Experience = change, actually.

To conceive that there is some unchanging and interpenetrating ultimate reality underlying the phenomenal universe of perception is only common sense.

Declaring that the underlying reality is a personal god is where one begins to leave sense and enter into magical thinking - which I perceive as a bad thing.