How do people come to the conclusion that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are coeternal?
What verses do they use to support their beliefs?
What verses do they use to support their beliefs?
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Coeternal?
- Thread starter k4c
- Start date
K4c, do you have proof that they are not? It is common belief that Jesus had to "take off" His divinity to die. I beleive we all assume that divinity included being eternal. However, we believe that all His divinity was returned to Him upon His return to heaven after ascension.
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If there are none that says he is and there are none that says he isn't then where did we get that belief from?
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Eph 3:11
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Heb 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Deut 33:27
The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.
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In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
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The word, word, is not a person, even though we try to make it a person. The word is something spoken. God spoke in the begining and things came into existance. Could He have spoken through a being in the begining to bring creation about. I believe so.
In times past God spoke to us in divers ways but in these last days that say spoken word, which was spoken to us in divers ways in times past, is now being spoke to us through His Son because God gave His Spirit to Jesus without limit to speak His word.
John 3:34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
This means God was not speaking to us through His Son in times past, but rather, in divers ways.
Within Jesus was two wills. One was of the Father and one was of Jesus. Jesus had to resist His will in order to obey the Father's will. The Father's will is eternal but Jesus' will began at His birth.
The only way I see this fitting is if the word, word, in John 1:1 is a metaphor for Jesus and not a literal Son.
Read Hebrews 1:1-2 and then answer the questions pertaining to the underlined words.
YLT Hebrews 1:1-2 In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;
Who is the God in the above, is it Jesus or the Father?
Who or what are the words spoken in divers ways and through the prophets, was it Jesus, Michael or the Angel of the Lord?
Do you think maybe Michael, Angel of the Lord and the prophets were the divers ways God spoke to us in times past, which would mean that Jesus is a new way God is speaking to us in these last days?
There is something preventing us from accepting the fact that God is eternal and immortal. He spoke to His creation in many different ways in times past. Sometimes He spoke to us through man and sometimes He spoke to us through angesl and maybe there was one particular Angel that God used to speak us more than He used the other ways. Either way the word that was God and with God or originated with God was spoke to His creation through these divers ways.
Could it be that this chief messenger of God, this created angelic being who spoke for God in times past, whether it be Michael or the Angel of the Lord, is also the one who put on sinful flesh and spoke to us in the person of Jesus?
God is eternal and spoke to His creation.
Man was created and was used by God to speak His word.
Angels were created and were used by God to speak His word.
Jesus was born and was used by God to speak His word.
Could the created Angel become flesh through a miraculous birth and be used by God to speak to us? I believe so...
Remember, just because a being was with God in the beginning and God used that being to create the world does not mean that being is eternal. All the angels were present during the creation of the world and we know they were created.
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Could the created Angel become flesh through a miraculous birth and be used by God to speak to us? I believe so...
Remember, just because a being was with God in the beginning and God used that being to create the world does not mean that being is eternal. All the angels were present during the creation of the world and we know they were created.
Careful brother, you are treading on dangerous ground...
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Dangerous ground? Are you kidding?
There is a spirit behind the trinity doctrine that is not of God. This spirit has tortured people and put them to death for their refusal of the trinity doctrine.
The questions I asked are honest and biblical. If we can't answer correctly and actually using the bible then we're all on dangerous ground.
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You are (or at least seem to be) questioning the divinity of Christ... that is dangerous ground.
Maybe I'm missing your point but that is what I'm understanding from your post...
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How does one deny the divinity of Christ?
Do they deny His divinity by saying Jesus is the only begotten Son of God?
Do they deny His divinity by saying the Father is greater than the Son?
Do we deny His divinity by saying He doesn't know the time of His coming, only the Father does?
Do we deny His divinity by saying Jesus died?
Do we claim the same divinity as Jesus if we become one with the Father just as Jesus is one with the Father?
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Then why do we worship Jesus and not just the Father alone? We are told the angels are not to be worshipped, so Jesus cannot be on their level.
Our lack of understanding of these things cannot detract from our worship of our Creator, Redeemer and soon coming King.
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So "the spoken word was with God, and the spoken word was God"? How is God's word, ie, the things He says, God?
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Our lack of understanding should not exalt a man made doctrine above a child of God. How can sinful, finite man create a doctrine so hard to understand and base another person's salvation, character, fellowship and even threaten their very life?
By using the Bible, tell me at what point was Jesus' name given an exalted position above every name and where are we are actually commanded by the Father to worship Him? Was it before His resurrection or after?
Now don't get me wrong, we are to love and obey Jesus because this is the will of the Father also.
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I always thought the trinity results for example from the fact that we are to baptize people in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
In the end a human being, who has never been to heaven, never ever seen anything beyond what they are capable of seeing, can only believe in God, the Jesus is his Son who has died on the Cross in our stead.
The word trinity itself doesnt appear in the bible. People, does it actually matter??
All I know is that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I decided to put my trust in Him.
Does our salvation depend on our acknowledgment of the trinity?
In the end a human being, who has never been to heaven, never ever seen anything beyond what they are capable of seeing, can only believe in God, the Jesus is his Son who has died on the Cross in our stead.
The word trinity itself doesnt appear in the bible. People, does it actually matter??
All I know is that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I decided to put my trust in Him.
Does our salvation depend on our acknowledgment of the trinity?
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All throughout the NT we are commanded to baptize in the name of Jesus. There is only one place that states in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to do anything in the name of the Holy Spirit, only in the power of the Holy Spirit.
So where did this triune baptism come from? It was added to streangthen a coeternal and coequal trinity God belief.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:
"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."
New Revised Standard Version says this about Matthew 28:19:
"Modern critics claim this formula is falsely ascribed to Jesus and that it represents later (Catholic) church tradition, for nowhere in the book of Acts (or any other book of the Bible) is baptism performed with the name of the Trinity..."
James Moffett's New Testament Translation:
In a footnote on page 64 about Matthew 28:19 he makes this statement: "It may be that this (Trinitarian) formula, so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Catholic) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community, It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing "in the name of Jesus, cf. Acts 1:5 +."
We should stick with the Bible to determine one's fellowship status.
Peter was blessed when he stated that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. This information was revealed to him by the Father.
Seeing Jesus as our Lord and Savior is good and biblical.
Understanding that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah and the sinless Son of the living God is all good and biblical.
Even calling Jesus, God, in light of how the Father views the word, God. This is good and biblical.
When we start adding requirements such as Jesus is, coequal and coeternal, we are going beyond the scope of what is needed for salvation, fellowship and may be causing more division than unity. We may even be going against the very words and testimony of Jesus Himself.
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It is true that the vast majority of verses refering to the Father and the Son, infer a difference or distinction between them. However, there are a few verses that specifically place Jesus on the same level as the Father...
Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Matt 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Heb 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
If the angels are to worship Him, should we not also?
Also consider this verse from Jesus' own mouth as to who He is...
John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Of course this is in reference to the God of the OT who spoke to Moses at the burning bush...
It seems, at least to me, that Jesus is as much God as the Father... could there be some kind of heirarchy with them? Perhaps, as there are numerous scriptures that speak of such, just as there is with Christ and His church; also the husband and his wife... it doesn't degrade each within the relationship to have different roles and responsibilities and to be one union...
John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
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The fact is that a created being could not be exalted to "God" status. To think otherwise would be to give credence to Satan's claim "I will exalt my throne..."
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I'm surprized you use these verses to justify your position. For example, you say that just because Jesus said He was one with the Father makes Him coeternal and coequal. I guess we too are coeternal and coequal because we can be, one with the Father, in the same way, Jesus is one with the Father.
John 17:22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
I have no problem calling Jesus, God, because the Bible calls Jesus, God. But does the title, God, mean coeternal and coequal?
Are these coeternal and coequal?
1 Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many;
Is this guy coeternal and coequal.
2 Cor 4:4 Because the god of this world has made blind the minds of those who have not faith, so that the light of the good news of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, might not be shining on them.
Emmanel, God with us. No problem with that.
Before Abraham was, I am. No problem with Jesus' preexistence.
Isaiah says, He shall be called, a future title given to this new born child.
Hebrews 1:6 “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Now lets be good Bible students.
When we study these verses they will line up with Isaiah when he said, "He shall be called". So lets study these verses.
Hebrews 1:5-6 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
According to this verse, the angels are commanded to worship Jesus as a result of God saying, "Today I have begotten You" and when He says, "Again He brings the firstborn into the world". What is He referring to?
When was Jesus given a name above every name?
At what point did God say, "Today I have begotten You"? And when did God bring Jesus into the world AGAIN?
Acts 13:33-34 33 “God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’ “And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: I will give you the sure mercies of David.’
Jesus was exalted above all through His dead and resurrection. He was obedient to the Father even unto death, THEREFORE God highly exalted Him.
Phil 2:8-10 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
There is a lot of stuff going on here that we need to process. We can't just use blanket statements and verses to prove something that is questionable without studying the verses.
The fact that the Father is the Father and Jesus is the Son tells us that first comes the Father and then comes the Son. One was first and eternal and one was second not eternal.
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