Code of Discipline

[JesusWalks78]

Re: Christalee

JW worded that a little graphically, but, done right and with the right child, that sort of "training" really isn't harmful (done badly, or with a child who just doesn't want to be there and is afraid of the entire ordeal is another story). So long as you stick to your kid's ability level (don't start throwing your all at a kid who's just starting out), and everything is done carefully for the purpose of learning, kids can understand that a twinge of pain is part of the experience. Think of a kid playing football or something--if they are into it, they often don't mind falling down and skinning their knees, or getting smacked by a ball.

There is no way to teach joint locks without actually locking the joints. Once they figure out that they're not getting injured, and that this is all part of the experience, most kids I've seen don't seem to mind it.

Exactly.

 

[ebia]

Discipline should always be tailored to the child.

Defenders of corporal punishment frequently suggest this, but the reality is that the use of corporal punishment correlates almost exclusively with the beliefs of the parents, not the nature of the child.

The fact is (and always will be) that a belief that some children need corporal punishment removes the incentive to look for better alternatives.

 

[Robinsegg]

Defenders of corporal punishment frequently suggest this, but the reality is that the use of corporal punishment correlates almost exclusively with the beliefs of the parents, not the nature of the child.

The fact is (and always will be) that a belief that some children need corporal punishment removes the incentive to look for better alternatives.

That's not always the case. My parents simply didn't know any other form of discipline than spanking. However, my brother didn't respond to spanking. They learned from his preK teacher other ways of dealing with him. They were willing to learn.

I spank my children very rarely. I (and hubby) use it for certain infractions to help the child understand the severity of the problem and to help make sure it's not repeated. We never spank in anger, we never give more than one swat per infraction, and we always give the child a chance to change the behavior before consequences come down. For us, it is a reasoned response to their actions, not a "last resort measure" or frustrated emotional response. Most of the time we use other methods of discipline, many of which are directly connected to the "crime". Both of our children respond to spanking, and know it's the result of action before they continue in the action.

Rachel

 

[Bananafish]

I spank my children very rarely. I (and hubby) use it for certain infractions to help the child understand the severity of the problem and to help make sure it's not repeated. We never spank in anger, we never give more than one swat per infraction, and we always give the child a chance to change the behavior before consequences come down. For us, it is a reasoned response to their actions, not a "last resort measure" or frustrated emotional response. Most of the time we use other methods of discipline, many of which are directly connected to the "crime". Both of our children respond to spanking, and know it's the result of action before they continue in the action.

Rachel

So, really, what you're saying over and over is that you can't think of another way to change your children's behavior. There are plenty of other ways to get the point across. Have you ever heard of logical consequences? Getting spanked is not a logical consequence for anything that I can think of.

 

[Mling]

Personally, I can understand loosing your cool and lashing out a child. It's a terrible thing to do, but I can understand it. I absolutely cannot understand somebody considering their options calmly and rationally, and deciding that striking their child's erogenous zones with the goal of hurting them is the best solution to a problem.

 

[Robinsegg]

Personally, I can understand loosing your cool and lashing out a child. It's a terrible thing to do, but I can understand it. I absolutely cannot understand somebody considering their options calmly and rationally, and deciding that striking their child's erogenous zones with the goal of hurting them is the best solution to a problem.

I have no goal of causing actual pain to my children. The goal is to give an impact (like slapping a babies wrist to keep them away from danger) to help them understand the danger in a situation.
Rachel

 

[lioninoil]

You are talking about raising a child in the fear and admonition of the Lord, or a child who is given over to Satan.

Let that guide your actions.

You should do whatever is needed to break the child's spirit of willfulness and makes the child submit himself or herself to authority. Remember what God did to the Northern Kingdoms and to Judah in order to get Israel to submit to His authority.

 

[Bananafish]

You are talking about raising a child in the fear and admonition of the Lord, or a child who is given over to Satan.

Let that guide your actions.

You should do whatever is needed to break the child's spirit of willfulness and makes the child submit himself or herself to authority. Remember what God did to the Northern Kingdoms and to Judah in order to get Israel to submit to His authority.

So apparently we are just coming from two completely different points of view. One should ALWAYS question whether something is right or wrong and this is no different for children. How is a child going to be able to think for him/herself if he/she never stops to question what is going on and why.

I don't think refraining from spanking a child will turn that child over to Satan. What's more evil is forcing children to do exactly what an adult says simply because that person is an adult. By spanking, what you're really doing is creating a child that is fearful of authority, and that is never a good thing.

 

[ebia]

You are talking about raising a child in the fear and admonition of the Lord, or a child who is given over to Satan.

Let that guide your actions.

You should do whatever is needed to break the child's spirit of willfulness and makes the child submit himself or herself to authority.

. What you propose is, quite simply, abuse.

 

[Mling]

What's more evil is forcing children to do exactly what an adult says simply because that person is an adult. By spanking, what you're really doing is creating a child that is fearful of authority, and that is never a good thing.

Moreover, you're all but painting "MOLEST ME" on their backs in glowing, neon letters. Experienced child molesters are very good at examining children and determining who will put up the least possible resistance, and a child who has been raised with the message "You always have to obey grown-ups because they'll hurt you if you don't" will be very easy to control.

And, as adults--voters, employees, spouses, etc.---there is a good chance that they will retain that instinctive fear of authority and be similarly easy to manipulate. I watched my roommate, who was raised this way, allow herself to be walked over by her boss this past year. When I asked her why she didn't talk to her boss about the contract the woman had broken my roommate, normally strong to the point of bull-headedness, meekly explained that the woman was an authority figure and she had to submit to her. Even if contracts were being broken, even if she was being exploited. You do anything an authority figure asks of you.

 

[christalee4]

You are talking about raising a child in the fear and admonition of the Lord, or a child who is given over to Satan.

Let that guide your actions.

You should do whatever is needed to break the child's spirit of willfulness and makes the child submit himself or herself to authority. Remember what God did to the Northern Kingdoms and to Judah in order to get Israel to submit to His authority.

Here: you would probably relish the methods taught by this cruel couple, Debi and Michael Pearl:

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/index.php?id=59&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=248&tx_ttnews[backPID]=7

They believe in disciplining babies with implements. They also have a great section on breaking down the will and spirit of a child: look under the chaper "The Rod", under "Biblical Chatisement Part II".

It's long, but worth reading, as Mr. Pearl lovingly describes how to psychologically render a child into a terrified, cowering animal, as well as inflicting pain the RIGHT way.

By the way, one lady who had used the Pearl books was arrested on murder charges after she suffocated her wilful child when the other methods failed. The child had been beaten with piping material, which had been recommended by the Pearls as a good tool for discipline.
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/418676.html


Enjoy.

 

[quatona]

You should do whatever is needed to break the child's spirit of willfulness and makes the child submit himself or herself to authority.

I couldn´t disagree more. I am shocked. I don´t even know where to start.

 

[SallyNow]

If parents are spanking their kids more than once a month, they need help.

The children need therapy, and the parents need some parenting lessons from a psychologist or psychiatrist with a specialization in parenting.

The best adults I know were rarely spanked as children... and they were downright brats! But their parents found much better ways, using holistic parenting, and never stopped being a parent and mentor. Through positive guidance, through creative discipline and through positive activities, these parents raised some of the most wonderful people. And all with rarely even spanking!

Sometimes, rarely a spanking is the quickest and most immediate way to discipline a child between the ages of 4-8. And sometimes you need to slap and grab a child's hand to keep it from, say, touching a broken lightbulb. But other than that, holistic parenting... taking into account every day, allowing for playtime and learning time and chore time and free time, allowing for children to learn from their mistakes and using natural consequences, works wonders.

I've never quite understood why, for instance, the punishment for breaking a plate because you used it as a frisbee was a spanking. It would make much more sense for the punishment to be cleaning up the plate, and using one's allowance to pay for a new one. And why is the kid throwing the plate in the first place? Because they have too much energy? Then sign the kid up for soccer or baseball for crying out loud! Too much time a child's hands can cause just as much trouble as too little.

[SIZE=+0]And develop those little imaginations! You'd be surprised how well an imaginative child is behaved in a restaurant compared to a child that has been encouraged to "stop daydreaming". The imaginative child can make up an elaborate story about why you're there and stay quiet the whole time... the unimaginative child will sit there hitting the table legs and clinking the silverware.[/SIZE]

As for using a strap to hit your child, anywhere on the body, it's just sad. A strap can be hit much harder than a hand, and worse than that, it can be hit very hard without really realizing it. A spanking is a smack on the behind that doesn't leave bruises... and a quick, weak slap to the hand is just that-a quick, weak slap to keep the hand away from something dangerous. Anything else is verging on abuse, or is just plain, horrible abuse.
[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]

 

[Mling]

I have no goal of causing actual pain to my children. The goal is to give an impact (like slapping a babies wrist to keep them away from danger) to help them understand the danger in a situation.
Rachel

If you can reach a wrist to slap it, than you can also just grab it. If your goal is to get their attention, you can do that with vocal intonation, clapping, shouting or stern looks.

I cannot believe that a person would choose to hit somebody, rather then choose more effective and less violent options, without the infliction of pain factoring into their decision-making process.

For the record, here are some brief summaries of longitudinal studies done on the effects of corporal punishment. Here is one example:

Objective: To test the hypothesis that use of corporal punishment (CP) by parents is associated with a subsequent decrease in academic performance. Methods: The frequency of hitting or spanking in the past week was measured for 622 children ages 5 and 6 in 1992. Academic achievement was measured by the Peabody Individual Achievement Test (PIAT) in 1992 and 1994. Multiple regression analysis controlled for 1992 PIAT score, child's level of antisocial behavior, mother's education, race and gender of child, mother's age at birth of child, father's presence in household, number of children in the household, amount of emotional support and cognitive stimulation the child received. Results: Each increase of one unit in the four unit CP scale at Time 1 was associated with an average decrease of 2.7 points in PIAT score at Time 2, net of all other variables. Conclusions. The finding that CP adversely affects academic achievement is important for children and for the nation because academic achievement is a major determinant of economic and health status and because CP is amenable to change through public health and parent education.

Even briefer synopsis: On average, and controlling for every possible factor including individual ability, the kids who received corporal punishment began to lag behind their peers in academic ability as they grew older. Minor amounts of CP resulted in less severe lagging, more CP resulted in more lagging.

I've read other, similar studies, and it is thought that the social and academic retardation occurs because parents tend to hit their children because it has a greater immediate effect then talking to them. So, parents who provide reasoning and rationals for their children provide them with proper intellectual stimulation, while parents who take the view "trying to reason with a child is pointless, I'll make my point by hitting their erogenous zones instead," do not provide them with proper intellectual stimulation at crucial moments, and the child ends up developmentally stunted. The effect may not be dramatic, but it is demonstrably present.

Edit: A note about the acheivement tests. The tests take age into consideration, so that if a child gets one score at 5 years old, they should get roughly the same score at 7 years old. So a decrease in score does not mean that the child has regressed, but that they have fallen behind their peers and the acheivement level they could have been expected to reach, given their first score.

 

[Mling]

As for using a strap to hit your child, anywhere on the body, it's just sad. A strap can be hit much harder than a hand, and worse than that, it can be hit very hard without really realizing it.

If we're going to get into the physics of implements, a strap is particularly dangerous because it is so flexible. Few people are true experts at swinging flimsy objects. If you overshoot your target slightly, the strap can wrap around the child's hip. As it wraps, the speed builds around the turn which can leave a severe welt or bruise (imagine, say, Indiana Jones's bullwhip flying slowly through the air, and then hitting something and wrapping around it really fast).

 

[bammertheblue]

If we're going to get into the physics of implements, a strap is particularly dangerous because it is so flexible. Few people are true experts at swinging flimsy objects. If you overshoot your target slightly, the strap can wrap around the child's hip. As it wraps, the speed builds around the turn which can leave a severe welt or bruise (imagine, say, Indiana Jones's bullwhip flying slowly through the air, and then hitting something and wrapping around it really fast).

You're absolutely right. That can be excruciatingly painful and can really, really damage a child. It can leave marks that last for up to 5 days. Yes, I know personally. No, I'm not telling you how. (I just like the new smiley)

 

[RavenPoe]

I work in sales and see people and families all day long. I can't believe how many parents hit their kids in anger right in public!