coC and Christmas

[figuringthingsout]

Okay, DRA, obviously this won't get us anywhere. I know you are a good guy, and thanks for the PM -it was nice. I am firm in my psotition of this, as are you. We don't agree, but we can still love each eachother in Christ, so I am done debating you. I hope you are filled with peace this Christmas season.

 

[- DRA -]

Okay, DRA, obviously this won't get us anywhere. I know you are a good guy, and thanks for the PM -it was nice. I am firm in my psotition of this, as are you. We don't agree, but we can still love each eachother in Christ, so I am done debating you. I hope you are filled with peace this Christmas season.

May God bless you and your family. Perhaps we can study together again.

In His service,

... DRA

 

[wherethebiblespeaks]

How can you honor God by using customs and traditions that he himself forbid? Aside from the pagan roots, can you please show me a verse in the Bible that instructs us to observe the birth of Christ as a religious holiday? Why is it that none of the apostles celebrated Christmas or felt any need to teach the observance of Christ's birth?

The customs of "Christmas" or The Day of Saturnalia as it was previously called originated long before the birth of Jesus. Look at Jeremiah 10:1-4:

"Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O House of Israel: Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

Sound a little familiar? People that practiced these customs were called heathens. Would you say that God is happy with heathens?

Another point I'd like to make also is this:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 states:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

So we are fully furnished for all good works by what? The thoughts of what men think are OK? No, we are fully furnished for all good works by the scripture. So if the scripture fully furnishes us for what we need to be perfect and that same scripture never gives authority to celebrate Christmas, then by what authority do you have TO celebrate it?

John 4:24 says

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

So, if we worship God we MUST worship Him in spirit and in truth. So what is spirit and what is truth?

John 17:17 says

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

John 6:63 says

"It is spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

So if God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth, then those that worship Him must worship Him according to his word. Now, if the word of God never mentions Christmas, can we truthfully celebrate it? If the word of God never tells us to observe Christ's birth as a holiday, are we allowed to do so? Remember He must be worshiped according to His word.

 

[DerSchweik]

How can you honor God by using customs and traditions that he himself forbid? Aside from the pagan roots, can you please show me a verse in the Bible that instructs us to observe the birth of Christ as a religious holiday? Why is it that none of the apostles celebrated Christmas or felt any need to teach the observance of Christ's birth?

Hm. Is there a verse in the bible that explicitly prohibits celebrating Christ's birth? Most Christian celebrations of Christmas in which I've ever participated revolved around the Gospel of Luke's account of Christ's birth. I guess I'm not understanding the origin of your zeal against celebrating it; I mean, if God deemed it important enough to include in His word, it seems to me sanction for at least some acknowledgment of it on our part, doesn't it?

And do we know for a fact the apostles did not acknowledge His birth somehow? Granted they didn't explicitly tell us TO observe it, but neither did they tell us NOT to observe it. Where's the harm, really?

The customs of "Christmas" or The Day of Saturnalia as it was previously called originated long before the birth of Jesus. Look at Jeremiah 10:1-4:

"Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O House of Israel: Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

Sound a little familiar? People that practiced these customs were called heathens. Would you say that God is happy with heathens?

Well, I guess I struggle with this use of Jeremiah in suggesting it is speaking of Christmas and therefore explicit warrant for NOT celebrating it. Granted, some origins of the holiday may have roots in heathen practices - but I truly fail to see paganism or heathenism in the holiday as it is practiced and celebrated by Christians today. Again, our family's focus is around the reading of the story in Luke. Other practices, like the singing of Christmas carols, exchange of gifts and charity to many in need are hardly pagan or heathenistic, are they? I just don't understand the inordinate zeal against such stuff nor the labeling it as somehow dishonoring God.

Another point I'd like to make also is this:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 states:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

So we are fully furnished for all good works by what? The thoughts of what men think are OK? No, we are fully furnished for all good works by the scripture. So if the scripture fully furnishes us for what we need to be perfect and that same scripture never gives authority to celebrate Christmas, then by what authority do you have TO celebrate it?

John 4:24 says

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

So, if we worship God we MUST worship Him in spirit and in truth. So what is spirit and what is truth?

John 17:17 says

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

John 6:63 says

"It is spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

So if God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth, then those that worship Him must worship Him according to his word. Now, if the word of God never mentions Christmas, can we truthfully celebrate it? If the word of God never tells us to observe Christ's birth as a holiday, are we allowed to do so? Remember He must be worshiped according to His word.

Well again, I don't dispute these scriptures one bit. But their application to celebrating Christ's birth seems quite a stretch, at best. No offense intended at all, I just don't understand the fervency against acknowledging Christ's birth nor the application of these verses as warrant to your point.

Just because the Word of God doesn't mention something explicitly is not reason necessarily to champion its prohibition, nor is it necessarily sanction and proof that thing is wrong or that those who embark on such activities are necessarily not worshipping Him in Spirit or truth. Such judgments are dangerous for both the one judging the hearts of others, for those being judged, and for those viewing such judgmentalism in light of His calling of them.

 

[wherethebiblespeaks]

John 4:24 says we MUST worship him in spirit and truth. If we MUST worship him according to His word then as aforementioned, if the word of God never states for us to celebrate Christ's birth then we should not do it.

 

[DerSchweik]

Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. I Corinthians 10:31 (NASB)

knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free. Ephesians 6:8 (NASB)

Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. Philippians 4:8 (NASB)

Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father. Colossians 3:17 (NASB)

I agree we MUST worship Him in Spirit and truth; and I agree we MUST use the bible as our guide. Isn't it true that our worship consists in *whatever* we do?

Then he said, "Listen now, O house of David! Is it too slight a thing for you to try the patience of men, that you will try the patience of my God as well? "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:13f (NASB)

Is it false worship to acknowledge a sign of God, the very sign being the birth of Immanuel, Christ, the Messiah?

Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.
And He will delight in the fear of the LORD,
And He will not judge by what His eyes see,
Nor make a decision by what His ears hear;
But with righteousness He will judge the poor,
And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth;
And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked. Isaiah 11:1-4 (NASB)

Is it false worship to acknowledge, let alone celebrate this prophecy of His birth?

"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity."
Therefore He will give them up until the time
When she who is in labor has borne a child
Then the remainder of His brethren
Will return to the sons of Israel. Micah 5:2f (NASB)

Is it false worship to acknowledge this word from God?

But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Galatians 4:4f (NASB)

Is it false worship to acknowledge, nay celebrate the redemption that came forth through His Son, or our subsequent adoption in accordance with the work He accomplished on the cross - a work He could not have done had He never been born, a birth heralded by Isaiah and Micah, prophets of God, speaking on God's behalf?

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this. Isaiah 9:6f (NASB)

Is it false worship to celebrate this - the birth of a child - given to us, accomplished by the zeal of the Lord?? I mean, if the Lord was zealous about Christ's birth, wouldn't it be proper if we showed at least *some* interest in it as well?

And the Word became flesh... John 1:14 (NASB)

Is it false worship to acknowledge this - His becoming flesh? Is it improper to celebrate this, the advent of God's salvific work, culminated in His death, burial, and resurrection?

What is heathenistic or pagan in any of the above?

I truly don't understand the dogmatic fervency over this issue of Christmas. It seems a bit fussy - and if you'll forgive me, perhaps a bit imperious to denounce something that *IS* mentioned in the Scriptures - the inspired Word of God, and more than just once in both Old and New Testaments; I mean God celebrated His birth, recording it in His word, devoting numerous prophecies concerning His arrival, several chapters in the gospels recording the events leading up to and including His birth.

No offense, but what exactly is the issue concerning Jesus' birth? I don't understand the vehemence against celebrating, or even acknowledging His birth. Maybe it's just the presence of the Christmas tree - or maybe Christmas lights; maybe it's because of the date chosen (is there a better date - maybe sometime in May or June?). Perhaps we could get an exposition on exactly what it does mean to worship Him in Spirit and truth, according to His Word.

This is just one day of the year - is it really that awful we take a little time out to devote to these verses in His Word? Are we apostate if we do? Is it grounds for shunning or disfellowship to celebrate the Lord's birth? Is it blasphemous, disrespectful; is it of the flesh or worldly? I don't get the venom and vitriol surrounding Christmas by Christians - though I do understand why some non-Christians are seeking to destroy it, to eliminate nativity scenes, say "Happy Holidays" instead of verbalizing anything containing Christ's name - this I understand; but Christians on similar campaigns? I don't understand this.

God bless - and I pray all have a Merry Christmas this season, that you all be filled with the joy of the season, blessed in His presence among us, and in our relationship with Him.

 

[wherethebiblespeaks]

If Jesus is "the REASON for the season" then will someone please explain to me how Santa Claus, decorating trees, mistletoe, reindeer, and elves are related to Jesus Christ?

 

[figuringthingsout]

I guess the same people who put the Easter Bunny with Easter! I still celebrate Christ's ressurrection though. I know I shouldn't because the Bible doesn't say "you should make Christ's ressurection a holiday."

I can't contain my praise and joy about Chris'ts birth and ressurrection! I am glad I am free to praise God for sending Jesus to us. I assure you that I am celebrating in spirit and in truth. Just as the angels and the wise men in Luke were prasing God for His son's birth, I will too this Christmas season.

Luke 2:10-20

 

[crawfish]

Man, we argue over a lot of silly things.

 

[DerSchweik]

Man, we argue over a lot of silly things.

Troublemaker

 

[SoulFly51]

Man, we argue over a lot of silly things.

No "we" don't.

 

[DerSchweik]

Man, we argue over a lot of silly things.

No "we" don't.

Well, I apologize for my part in all this. Just whack me when I do that.