Co-Redeemer?

[lionroar0]

Help in what way? To get Him into the world born as a baby to grow and become the lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world.. It is still His blood only that remission of sin and salvation comes..

HIs blood which is human and devine. He humbled himself and took in human nature from Mary.

Are you denying that Jesus is also human?

Peace

 

[IamAdopted]

HIs blood which is human and devine. He humbled himself and took in human nature from Mary.

Are you denying that Jesus is also human?

Peace

Have I ever denied this? I understand some of what you say.. That Jesus would not have been human if not for Mary. And I don't deny this. But the redemption Part had nothing to do with Mary.. Just His birth Part.. His sacrafice for men was mentioned way before Mary was born.. This is why Jesus became Human was for redemption of man. This is why Jesus came.. To Pay for our sin..

 

[lionroar0]

Have I ever denied this? I understand some of what you say.. That Jesus would not have been human if not for Mary. And I don't deny this. But the redemption Part had nothing to do with Mary.. Just His birth Part.. His sacrafice for men was mentioned way before Mary was born.. This is why Jesus became Human was for redemption of man. This is why Jesus came.. To Pay for our sin..

And this has already been explained and it is not the straw man that you keep erecting.


Peace

 

[Benedicta00]

Yeah, I guess that's probably the problem
LionRoar.
It's so difficult for me.
Use the example of how a couple of the
girls say that we're degrading mary
if we don't venerate her.

I guess you can imagine how defensive
I get over my Jesus.
So, to me, for any human to get this
much press is very confusing.

I have cried more than once reading
some of the threads.

Hey, I'm female too, what can I say.

But emotion aside, because we cannot
let our senses dictate to us, we need
to master them,
I am seriously looking for the truth.
So far, the Bible indicates that it's Christ
alone who redeemed, The blood of the Lamb.

sunlover

Sulover.. but no one is being asked to give up our belief that Jesus redeems us.

We know he is. It's beyond ridiculous if we think anyone else does.

We do not believe for one second that Co Redeemer means Mary redeemed us from sin. It only means that she gave her fiat, her obedience, her conforming her will to God's will for our sake, she didn't do it for her own...

.

 

[Benedicta00]

People have always had eternity.. We were created in the Image of God.. Eternal life comes by faith in Christ.. Those who try to come through a different way are thieves and robbers and there eternity will not be with the Lord but apart from the Lord..

Help in what way? To get Him into the world born as a baby to grow and become the lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world.. It is still His blood only that remission of sin and salvation comes..

This fear you have of the incarnation and the baby Jesus as taking focus off of the grown Jesus is unfounded and illogical.

No incarnation, the word made flesh and dwelling amoung us, no cross, no resurrection, no redemption.

.

 

[Benedicta00]

Have I ever denied this? I understand some of what you say.. That Jesus would not have been human if not for Mary. And I don't deny this. But the redemption Part had nothing to do with Mary.. Just His birth Part.. His sacrafice for men was mentioned way before Mary was born.. This is why Jesus became Human was for redemption of man. This is why Jesus came.. To Pay for our sin..

and we do agree with this.

But we say in a in direct way- she put herself through all that she did willingly because she knew the world was going to be redeemed through her son's suffering and death, so she did it for us, thus we call her co redeemer.

Kind of like war... while the man and now days the woman too, go off to war while woman/family stay home doing their thing. family members don't fight the war and win us our freedom but their sacrifice is duly noted.

We honer them for the sacrifice they make for our sakes.

 

[PassthePeace1]

and we do agree with this.

But we say in a in direct way- she put herself through all that she did willingly because she knew the world was going to be redeemed through her son's suffering and death, so she did it for us, thus we call her co redeemer.

Kind of like war... while the man and now days the woman too, go off to war while woman/family stay home doing their thing. family members don't fight the war and win us our freedom but their sacrifice is duly noted.

We honer them for the sacrifice they make for our sakes.

Great analogy!!!!!!

 

[Benedicta00]

Great analogy!!!!!!

Thanks!.

 

[sunlover1]

and we do agree with this.

But we say in a in direct way- she put herself through all that she did willingly because she knew the world was going to be redeemed through her son's suffering and death, so she did it for us, thus we call her co redeemer.

Kind of like war... while the man and now days the woman too, go off to war while woman/family stay home doing their thing. family members don't fight the war and win us our freedom but their sacrifice is duly noted.

We honer them for the sacrifice they make for our sakes.

I agree she did it willingly and have no
problem with even giving her credit for
this but He alone redeemed.

Redemption isn't something that could
have been shared.
He did it all.

If my son rescued a child, I can't say I
helped just because I gave birth to him.
He would have done it himself.

 

[PassthePeace1]

I agree she did it willingly and have no
problem with even giving her credit for
this but He alone redeemed.

Redemption isn't something that could
have been shared.
He did it all.

If my son rescued a child, I can't say I
helped just because I gave birth to him.
He would have done it himself.

I posted on this the yesterday I believe, about the difference between, Jesus being a redeemer by nature..meaning that He was the only one that could meet the quailfications of the Redeemer.

And that Mary, and ourselves are "co"-redeemers, but grace, because of the grace that Jesus merited for us on the Cross. When we "co"-operate with these graces, we are working "with" (co) Jesus, in building up His Kingdom (The Mystical Body of Christ).

Jesus by nature= because He was both fully man and fully God.

Creatures by grace= because we co-operate with Jesus, because God is the source of all grace, ulimately the glory is all His. But because we also have free-will, God doesn't force this on us, we must give our consent...and when we do, God works thru us in the building of His Kingdom.

I am not sure if it was on this thread or another one, because really for me...all of these Marian threads are becoming a blurrr.

 

[Benedicta00]

I agree she did it willingly and have no
problem with even giving her credit for
this but He alone redeemed.

Redemption isn't something that could
have been shared.
He did it all.

If my son rescued a child, I can't say I
helped just because I gave birth to him.
He would have done it himself.

Right... Christ alone redeems, we know. We so know.

And Right.... your kid did a rescue, not you.

But what if the rescue was long anticipated and many were hoping and waiting for it and so were you and one day a angle appeared to you and said you are to be mother of this rescuer, that you are having this child for this reason and he will die and suffer and you too will suffer... and you said, "Let it be done..."

IOW, Mary did not just have a baby one day and low and behold he turned out to be God unbeknown to her and then he saved the world.

She had a baby knowing not a man, she was asked to give up her own life to be the mother of the redeemer and accept all that went with that.

Mary said yes, why? because she wanted a baby? No, she said yes for our sake, so we could be saved.

In this sense only, she is co redeemer.

But Sunlover, this is not a dogma, you do not have to accept this. .

 

[Benedicta00]

I posted on this the yesterday I believe, about the difference between, Jesus being a redeemer by nature..meaning that He was the only one that could meet the quailfications of the Redeemer.

And that Mary, and ourselves are "co"-redeemers, but grace, because of the grace that Jesus merited for us on the Cross. When we "co"-operate with these graces, we are working "with" (co) Jesus, in building up His Kingdom (The Mystical Body of Christ).

Jesus by nature= because He was both fully man and fully God.

Creatures by grace= because we co-operate with Jesus, because God is the source of all grace, ulimately the glory is all His. But because we also have free-will, God doesn't force this on us, we must give our consent...and when we do, God works Thur us in the building of His Kingdom.

I am not sure if it was on this thread or another one, because really for me...all of these Marian threads are becoming a blurrr.

Sunlover, this is Right.. IOW, God enlists our help. He doesn't need our help, but He made it a part of how this whole thing works.

I remember explaining something like this to your friend Les a while back in OBOB when she was looking into Catholicism.

We all have to stand before God and given an account for our lives, I won't be able to point a finger and my husband and say, '"he's the reason..."(Even though he prolly is...lol.) We are saved individually but never alone.

God does not save us alone in isolation but we are all saved t.o.g.e.t.h.e.r through our building up one another's faith in Christ, baring burdens, etc which is building the church.

This is the reason Jesus said where two or three are gathered in His name, there he is. Community is critical, we can't be saved with out. I mean God can save someone stranded on a dessert island or Tarzan who lives in the jungle but ordinarily, he ordained that we save one another. I need to be your Jesus and you need to be mine least we all give up running the race.

We are our brother's keeper. If we learned anything at all from Cain and Able, it's that.

Ppl criticized Mother Theresa because she never evangelized Christ by preaching but she only wanted to be Jesus to the poorest of the poor, those who need Jesus the most, but not in a intellectual way, in a real tangible way.

Anyway, I'm rambling on. I hope you get what I'm trying to articulate. We are our brother's keeper. Sin scattered us all about and God sent us a savior but he also enlisted or help to actualize this salvation Christ alone won. God does not need our help but he made it necessary because this unity is what brings human beings together as one. .

 

[IamAdopted]

This fear you have of the incarnation and the baby Jesus as taking focus off of the grown Jesus is unfounded and illogical.

No incarnation, the word made flesh and dwelling amoung us, no cross, no resurrection, no redemption.

.

I understand that about Jesus being Human.. But Baby Jesus is not what it is all about.. Not little Jesus either.. It is when Christ became of age and started to preach the truth and laid down His life for us.. Putting focus on Mary the way it is takes away from Christ crucified and ressurected.. This is what is the Most and only True truth we all need to focus on...

 

[PassthePeace1]

I understand that about Jesus being Human.. But Baby Jesus is not what it is all about.. Not little Jesus either.. It is when Christ became of age and started to preach the truth and laid down His life for us.. Putting focus on Mary the way it is takes away from Christ crucified and ressurected.. This is what is the Most and only True truth we all need to focus on...

One can't compartmentalize Jesus's life, it was just as important for Him to have been born thru creation, to restore fallen creation back to God, since all of creation was thru Him. Otherwise, why would it have been necessary for the Incarntation to have happened, in the first place?

Peace be with you...Pam

 

[IamAdopted]

One can't compartmentalize Jesus's life, it was just as important for Him to have been born thru creation, to restore fallen creation back to God, since all of creation was thru Him. Otherwise, why would it have been necessary for the Incarntation to have happened, in the first place?

Peace be with you...Pam

Well He needed to come restore what Adam had given away.. Since Adam sin came and because of this Christ had to come to redeem us so we could be retored back to fellowship with God..

 

[sunlover1]

Right... Christ alone redeems, we know. We so know.

And Right.... your kid did a rescue, not you.

But what if the rescue was long anticipated and many were hoping and waiting for it and so were you and one day a angle appeared to you and said you are to be mother of this rescuer, that you are having this child for this reason and he will die and suffer and you too will suffer... and you said, "Let it be done..."

IOW, Mary did not just have a baby one day and low and behold he turned out to be God unbeknown to her and then he saved the world.

She had a baby knowing not a man, she was asked to give up her own life to be the mother of the redeemer and accept all that went with that.

Mary said yes, why? because she wanted a baby? No, she said yes for our sake, so we could be saved.

In this sense only, she is co redeemer.

But Sunlover, this is not a dogma, you do not have to accept this. .

I don't understand what that means.
You believe that mary was co redeemer,
but it's not 'dogma'?

I don't know what you mean here.

sunlover

 

[HisKid1973]

I don't understand what that means.
You believe that mary was co redeemer,
but it's not 'dogma'?

I don't know what you mean here.

sunlover

She means it is nothing that is "official" and you can agree or disagree with it..bless ya..Kim

 

[sunlover1]

She means it is nothing that is "official" and you can agree or disagree with it..bless ya..Kim

An unofficial belief...
Okay thank you Hiskid.

So do catholics believe or disbelieve this?
Does the pope believe this?

I was thinking about this, and this is
not right because God shares His glory
with NOone, not even mary, the mother
of Jesus.

We are looking at the flesh.
Jesus is God/Spirit.
We arent even to know any man after
the flesh.

I don't even think we're married in heaven
and the marriage union is a spiritual one
ness, even more than that of a mom and
child.
why we're told to leave and cleave.

...

 

[PassthePeace1]

Well He needed to come restore what Adam had given away.. Since Adam sin came and because of this Christ had to come to redeem us so we could be retored back to fellowship with God..

Yes, that was my point. So why are you compartmentalizing Jesus's life? When you said...

I understand that about Jesus being Human.. But Baby Jesus is not what it is all about.. Not little Jesus either.. It is when Christ became of age and started to preach the truth and laid down His life for us.. Putting focus on Mary the way it is takes away from Christ crucified and ressurected.. This is what is the Most and only True truth we all need to focus on...

 

[lionroar0]

An unofficial belief...
Okay thank you Hiskid.

So do catholics believe or disbelieve this?
Does the pope believe this?

Some do call her co-redemeer others don't. Personally I don't. IMO Mary being the Mother of God shows her unique role in the plan of salvation and cover the title "co-redemeer." Alhough not explicitly but implicitly. This is just my opinon.

I was thinking about this, and this is
not right because God shares His glory
with NOone, not even mary, the mother
of Jesus.

He does share HIs glory with all of His family. Otherwise we would not be inheritors of the kingdom.

We are looking at the flesh.
Jesus is God/Spirit.

We arent even to know any man after
the flesh.

I don't even think we're married in heaven
and the marriage union is a spiritual one
ness, even more than that of a mom and
child.
why we're told to leave and cleave.

Jesus is both Spirit and flesh. When He ressurected He did so with His human body made of flesh, which has been cricifued three days before.

We will be ressurected in our own bodies but they will not be the same as we have them now.

It's a mystery.

Peace