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thereselittleflower

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HisKid1973 said:
Hi TLF..I"m guessing your name is Therese.
Hi Kim

You can call me Therese I took my online name after a Saint of the Catholic Church, Therese of Lisieux known as Therese the Little Flower - hence my name here.


I hope you don't think we see the Trinity any other way! We do not elevate Mary to the position of the Trinity, or make her in any way a part of or equal to the Trintiy . . God forbid!

She is a created being, like you and me . .


I agree.

Thank you Sis for taking time to explain .You know we still are all seing thru the glass darkly, till we see Him face to face.No one really sees it perfect yet.. Thank God for His Redeeming, soul cleansing work of redemption..YBIC..Kim

Amen and you are very welcome. Any time you have questions about our faith, please don't hesitate to ask . . .


John Paul pray for us
 
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thereselittleflower

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Well, until the Church defines this as dogma, it has not been done and we are free to hold to one side or the other in this question . .we just can't question the doctrine itself.



John Paul pray for us
 
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WarriorAngel

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cleopa_of_emmaus said:
Thanks for the link!!!

~cleopa

You are very welcome. Hope it helps understand the whole meaning. I know it helped me a great deal.
 
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thereselittleflower

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cleopa_of_emmaus said:
....and I still don't think it should be dogma.

~cleopa

You are very miuch entitled to hold this opnion . . and no one should make you fell wrong for doing so . . .

We simply must be ready to put our opinions aside if and when the Church comes out and proclaims something our opinions are contrary to . .. that willingness to submit our personal understanding to the teaching of the Church, which is the Pillar and Foundation of the truth, is indeed an act of humility and submission to Christ on our parts.



John Paul pray for us
 
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Rising_Suns

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This is another reason why I am Catholic and not Eastern Orthodox. It seems only the Catholic Church sees just how profound a role God has given Our Lady. For me, personally, I just don't understand this hesitation or aversion to regard her higher than other saints. She is not only the greatest saint, but she has been elevated by God as our mother, and her intercessions carry more weight than all the angels and saints in heaven.

I want to run into her arms full force, without hesitation, for she will lead me closer to her Son. Everything she is and everything she does points to her Son, and she is a profound channel of His graces that she distributes according to her free will.

Blesssings,

-Davide
 
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cleopa_of_emmaus

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The quote from EWTN was talking about Eastern Catholics as well.

~cleopa
 
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Rising_Suns

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cleopa_of_emmaus said:
The quote from EWTN was talking about Eastern Catholics as well.

~cleopa

Perhaps that's what they claimed, but that is not reflected in the words they spoke.

Whoever wrote that sounds Eastern Orthodox, not Eastern Catholic, especially when he trivializes what the Catechism and past popes titled Mary.

To me, he is essentially rejecting the Catholic Church in favor of the Orthodox perspective. You can't get any more Orthodox than what was written above.

Blessings,

-Davide
 
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Letalis

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Rising_Suns said:
Everything she is and everything she does points to her Son, and she is a profound channel of His graces that she distributes according to her free will.
This regarding her title as 'Mediatrix of all graces?'
 
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Shane Roach

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Without doubt the church has grown and evolved, but it is clear that the New Testament warns of false as well as true teachings, so we all struggle I think to sift the bad from the good teachings. Obviously I don't see myself as falling into a trap here.

I guess the point I am making here is that salvation does not seem to require any belief at all about Mary, but rests exclusively on Christ. I am reminded just now of the verse regarding John the Baptists who said, "I must decrease so that He may increase," and things such as this seem to reinforce the idea that focus should be always on Christ, whom the Spirit reveals to us all.




Well, Romans 8:26-30 seems to trace intercessions from the Spirit, to Christ, to the Father.

As far as Mary being married to the Holy Spirit separately from Christ's marriage to the church, there seems to be no mention of it in revelation as anything distinct. There are no mentions anywhere of needing Mary's intercessions between man and the Holy Spirit, and as I mentioned before the Holy Spirit actually appears to dwell in every Christian. "Do you not know your body is a temple?" That sort of thing.

This all becomes dangerously close to debate and I am constantly at pains not to press it in that direction. Obviously, I am not yet in full communion so to speak with the Catholic teaching here, and I am as I was, merely asking if there are teachings or ideas that directly address these issues.

Thanks again an again for all your help! Looking foreward to the whole Conclave. Whatever else one believes, it seems clear this is going to be a crucial historic moment and I am curious as to how it will turn out.

Take care.
 
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Rising_Suns

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Why do you assume that devotion to Mary somehow takes away one's focus from Christ? Why does it have to be either/or? This has always confused me.


I would be careful not to use the Bible as your only source of God's authority. No where in Scripture does Scripture say that it alone is God's exclusive authority. Being Catholic and knowing how the Bible came into existence, we know that God gave His authoirty to the Church.


You're welcome anytime here.

Blessings,

-Davide
 
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Rising_Suns

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Letalis said:
Is this the only interpretation of that title?

Well, "Mediatrix of All Graces" means that, just as God came through Mary into the world, so too does God's graces come through Mary into the world.

It is a doctrine of faith to believe that Mary is a channel of God's graces--if not in full, atleast in part.

Blessings,

-Davide
 
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Letalis

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I thought I had heard another interpretation that I found myself able to accept. The interpretation was that grace came to the world through the womb of Mary (meaning Jesus). Thus the title 'Mediatrix of all graces.' The interpretation was something similiar to that.
 
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Shane Roach

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Rising_Suns said:
Why do you assume that devotion to Mary somehow takes away one's focus from Christ? Why does it have to be either/or? This has always confused me.

More or less by definition, if one is relying on Mary to speak to the Holy Spirit when one has been told to rely on the Holy Spirit directly, there appears to be a lessening of the role of the Father, as in Matthew 16:17, or the Spirit which in turn is the one who points us to Christ, according to verses like Romans 8:16 and 1 John 5:6.




Indeed, without the prompting of the Holy Spirit, none of us would know the Bible from a book of Wicca. Still, there are many verses to be had on the subject of proper instruction, choosing leaders, and discerning a false from a true teaching. So rather than worry about whether or not I am succumbing to any number of presuppositions, if any one has an explanation as far as the roots of this teaching and how it relates to the questions I had, that would be more helpfull.

I know that many of you have been plagued by scrutiny of your faith from people who have these various assumptions. I'm sure I am not free of assumptions of various types myself. I am simply trying to figure out the nature of what is unique about Mary, where the teaching comes from, and how it is ballanced with other teachings I am familiar with.
 
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marciadietrich

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But the Catechism states (paraphrase) that Mary in heaven has not laid aside this saving office, in other words, she still now mediates graces in and active fashion, and not just by merit of having given birth to Christ which is a more passive viewpoint.

For me the solution is that Mary is the ultimate "type" of the Church (mother of the Church and represents the Church itself and all its members), and it is via the Church we gain salvation (outside the Church no salvation) ... so all who are saved gain grace via the Church regardless of if they are in the Catholic church as a member because know it or not all grace for salvation is in and from the Church.

This was a problem area for me with that active role of mediating all grace. So understand as I was where you are now not that long ago.
 
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Shane Roach

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That would be something I could wrap my head around more easily as well, actually. But after years of praying to the Father or to Jesus I find the prospect of praying to Mary somehow a misplacement of my faith.

I pray by the Spirit through Christ to the Father, is my understanding. I can't figure why that would be a bad thing, or less effective than praying through Mary by the Spirit through Christ to the Father. I can't find any reason to enlist Her other than perhaps as has been mentioned as a co-intercessor, and even then it would seem to me a strange sort of diversion of effort. Even like, the Lord's Prayer, is directed to the Father.

Hmm.
 
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Paul S

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Shane Roach said:
That would be something I could wrap my head around more easily as well, actually. But after years of praying to the Father or to Jesus I find the prospect of praying to Mary somehow a misplacement of my faith.

I assume, then, you never ask anyone to pray for you?
 
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