Co-Redeemer?

[Matrona]

Is it your assertion that Catholics think she is something more than a "regular human woman?"

It's my opinion that her humanity, and thus Christ's, would be divorced from ours by the concepts outlined in Roman Catholic teaching. That's all I have to say on the subject.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

It's my opinion that her humanity, and thus Christ's, would be divorced from ours by the concepts outlined in Roman Catholic teaching. That's all I have to say on the subject.

Thanks. If you'd ever like to share why, I'd like to hear it.

 

[Maximus]

[Quoting Pope John Paul II]In fact, at Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son that led to the foundation of the Church; her maternal heart shared to the very depths the will of Christ ‘to gather into one all the dispersed children of God’ (Jn. 11:52). Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity. … In fact Mary’s role as Coredemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son" (Inside the Vatican, July 1997, p. 23). taken from http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/marycoredeemer.htm

I must confess I am not sure I understand the desire to call the Mother of God "Co-Redemptrix." I don't see any need to do so, even though Mary most certainly performed the most important work in the plan of salvation, after our Lord Jesus Himself.

A few people have explained that term (Co-Redemptrix) as merely describing Mary's role as the Mother of our Lord, how she was obedient to the Father and cooperated fully in the plan of salvation, etc.

That's fine, although I still don't see the need for such a confusing term.

Then I read and hear things like the quote from Pope John Paul II above, and I wonder if at least some people don't intend much more by the use of it.

They seem to be making Mary's suffering part of the package of suffering that paid off the "offended God" of the Western, Anselmian notion of redemption. Thus it seems (seems, because I am not sure this is what the Latins really mean) that Jesus' life, death on the cross, and resurrection were insufficient to accomplish the task; that somehow it required a contribution of suffering by His Mother.

That is why I think the term Co-Redemptrix should be dropped altogether. It serves no good purpose. I have never seen it used by the Fathers. It was not used at the Council of Ephesus in 431, and that was the council that proclaimed the Orthodoxy of the Church's ancient practice of calling Mary the Mother of God (Theotokos).

It is confusing at the very least. I suspect that some poor souls have succumbed to that confusion to ascribe things to the Mother of God that are just not true.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

But we do use the term Mediatrix, correct? I know this is different but it seemed that someone might have been saying that this was not Orthodox. I could swear i recently heard it at two services at my Church and I remembered thinking about how "latin" that term Mediatrix sounded. Please correct me if I am wrong.

John

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

But we do use the term Mediatrix, correct? I know this is different but it seemed that someone might have been saying that this was not Orthodox. I could swear i recently heard it at two services at my Church and I remembered thinking about how "latin" that term Mediatrix sounded. Please correct me if I am wrong.

John

Mediatrix is the feminine form of the latin word Mediator. Any woman that mediates on behalf of, or petitions for, or prays for another can be called a mediatrix. Of course, the Theotokos, being the foremost mediator, can be called Mediatrix with a capital M.

Although the term is Latin, I believe the sentiment is Universal.

 

[Maximus]

But we do use the term Mediatrix, correct? I know this is different but it seemed that someone might have been saying that this was not Orthodox. I could swear i recently heard it at two services at my Church and I remembered thinking about how "latin" that term Mediatrix sounded. Please correct me if I am wrong.

John

Do we?

I don't think we do, but I could be wrong.

I seem to remember St. John Maximovitch saying something negative about such expressions in his book, The Orthodox Veneration of Mary, the Birthgiver of God, but I'll have to look back over it to be sure.

I think it better to use the word "intercessor" than "Mediatrix."

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

I think it better to use the word "intercessor" than "Mediatrix."

I think I have to agree with Maximus on this.

(By the bye, Maximus, I challenge you to a friendly debate on tattoos.)

While "Mediatrix" seems innocent enough (to me, anyway) in denotation, it connotes a Latin view of Mariology. Not that I want to get into a debate on East-West theology, but it is fair to say that many terms found in the West (whether Catholic or Protestant) carry significant theological baggage.

Best to stick to the more neutral "intercessor".

 

[Alexis OCA]

I think I have to agree with Maximus on this.

While "Mediatrix" seems innocent enough (to me, anyway) in denotation, it connotes a Latin view of Mariology. Not that I want to get into a debate on East-West theology, but it is fair to say that many terms found in the West (whether Catholic or Protestant) carry significant theological baggage.

Best to stick to the more neutral "intercessor".

I have found in many cases that strictly defining a mystery, rather than clarifying the mystery, locks one into a box from which there is no escape.

 

[Facing East]

I know the term "Medatrix" is used in one of the hymns to the Theotokos in our parish during the Divine Liturgy - it follows on the heals of the Troparia

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I'm in the choir, and I don't believe I've ever heard that term used during our Liturgy or Vespers (OCA-DOS). But I could be wrong.


Mary

 

[Matrona]

While "Mediatrix" seems innocent enough (to me, anyway) in denotation, it connotes a Latin view of Mariology. Not that I want to get into a debate on East-West theology, but it is fair to say that many terms found in the West (whether Catholic or Protestant) carry significant theological baggage.

I think so too, although I am in the choir and I see mediatrix used in hymns. I don't mind singing it but I wouldn't mind if they changed it to something else, either, just to be on the safe side.

Then again, I guess you could caution the same way about calling Mary "Theotokos" because it could suggest that we think the entire Most Holy Trinity was born of her instead of the Incarnate Word.

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

Then again, I guess you could caution the same way about calling Mary "Theotokos" because it could suggest that we think the entire Most Holy Trinity was born of her instead of the Incarnate Word.

Since I can't debate in here, I didn't say this, but you took the words out of my mouth.

 

[Maximus]

Then again, I guess you could caution the same way about calling Mary "Theotokos" because it could suggest that we think the entire Most Holy Trinity was born of her instead of the Incarnate Word.

There's little danger of that, since it is clear that Mary gave birth to our Lord Jesus Christ, and no one has ever claimed that the Father and the Holy Spirit were born in the flesh.

There is also no danger of over-exalting our Lord Jesus, since He is God.

There is, however, a very clear danger of excess when it comes to any of the saints, even the Mother of God.

That is the essential difference between the title Theotokos and Mediatrix.

Theotokos exalts the Son of God and affirms His divinity. It honors Mary, too, but only secondarily.

Mediatrix, on the other hand, while it can be explained in an Orthodox way, tends to exalt Mary while saying nothing about her Son.

Exalting and venerating Mary is fine. I'm all for it.

We should beware of excesses, however.

"Co-Redemptrix" is one of them.

Corrective Note: Montanus did claim he was the Holy Spirit incarnate, but I think you all know what I meant.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I think some jurisdictions sing:
O Undisputed intercessor of Christians, the mediatrix unrejected by the Creator, turn not away from the voice of our petitions, though we be sinners. Come to us in time, who cry to thee in faith, with assistance; for thou art good. Hasten to us with intercessions O Theotokos, who dost ever intercede for those who honor thee.

In my parish (OCA) we sing it this way:
Steadfast Protectress of Christians, constant advocate before the Creator, depise not the cry of us sinners but in your goodness come speedily to help us who call on you in faith. Hasten to intercede for us O Theotokos for you always help those who honor you!

 

[Maximus]

I think some jurisdictions sing:
O Undisputed intercessor of Christians, the mediatrix unrejected by the Creator, turn not away from the voice of our petitions, though we be sinners. Come to us in time, who cry to thee in faith, with assistance; for thou art good. Hasten to us with intercessions O Theotokos, who dost ever intercede for those who honor thee.

In my parish (OCA) we sing it this way:
Steadfast Protectress of Christians, constant advocate before the Creator, depise not the cry of us sinners but in your goodness come speedily to help us who call on you in faith. Hasten to intercede for us O Theotokos for you always help those who honor you!

Thanks for that, Monica.

Advocate I have heard. Mediatrix I have not.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

It's mediatrix in the russian Church.. but maybe that is because of the scholastic influence it suffered. Either way, it doesn't bother me.. it was jsut curious to me.

 

[Michael G]

Thanks for that, Monica.

Advocate I have heard. Mediatrix I have not.

There is a HUGE difference between Mary being a mediatrix and the Mediatrix of All Graces. The Mediator of All Graces is the Holy Spirit. To suggest that all grace somehow flows through Mary is to put her on the same level as the trinity. That, I dare say, changes the Trinity into a quartet and in doing so renders Christianity pagan.

 

[Maximus]

There is a HUGE difference between Mary being a mediatrix and the Mediatrix of All Graces. The Mediator of All Graces is the Holy Spirit. To suggest that all grace somehow flows through Mary is to put her on the same level as the trinity. That, I dare say, changes the Trinity into a quartet and in doing so renders Christianity pagan.

I agree.

A Latin I know once explained to me that "Mediatrix of All Graces" just means that there is nothing the Theotokos cannot secure for us by her prayers.

I asked him if he was sure that's what it means because, if so, then my next door neighbor is likewise a "mediator of all graces."

He became offended, but I suspect something more is meant by such grandiose titles than merely that St. Mary can ask God for anything.

 

[countrymouse33ad]

I asked him if he was sure that's what it means because, if so, then my next door neighbor is likewise a "mediator of all graces."

Since I am bored, allow me to nitpick for just a minute. Unless your neighbor is truly a righteous man, it is not likely that there is nothing he can secure for you through his prayers. The Theotokos, on the other hand... but, then, that would also apply to all other Saints.

But I know what you mean. Sometimes I wonder why they don't simply, in the first place, say what they end up claiming they mean to say.

 

[Maximus]

Since I am bored, allow me to nitpick for just a minute. Unless your neighbor is truly a righteous man, it is not likely that there is nothing he can secure for you through his prayers. The Theotokos, on the other hand... but, then, that would also apply to all other Saints.

But I know what you mean. Sometimes I wonder why they don't simply, in the first place, say what they end up claiming they mean to say.

Yeah, you're nitpicking, but that's okay.

Better to pick nits than to let 'em crawl all over something.