Clothing oneself?

[Sketcher]

How can one separate character from action? Action from form? Form from appearance?

Character and action are related. Appearance isn't so important. Dressing a certain way means absolutely nothing. It's who you are and what you do that matters to God. This is a point Jesus pointed out again and again, when he did not ceremonially wash his hands (Mark 7:1-21), when he honored common people over religious leaders (Luke 10:25-37, Luke 18:9-14), and when he lashed out at those leaders for looking holy without really being holy (Matthew 23:1-28). Jesus did not waste his time with minutae; he focused on what really counts, and that is character. If there's one thing a righteous person must not do, it is believe that a well-dressed man would be any more capable or likely to love God or do good deeds than a man who is poorly dressed.

 

[ampbelle3130]

Character and action are related. Appearance isn't so important. Dressing a certain way means absolutely nothing. It's who you are and what you do that matters to God. This is a point Jesus pointed out again and again, when he did not ceremonially wash his hands (Mark 7:1-21), when he honored common people over religious leaders (Luke 10:25-37, Luke 18:9-14), and when he lashed out at those leaders for looking holy without really being holy (Matthew 23:1-28). Jesus did not waste his time with minutae; he focused on what really counts, and that is character. If there's one thing a righteous person must not do, it is believe that a well-dressed man would be any more capable or likely to love God or do good deeds than a man who is poorly dressed.

very well said! with great references.

 

[OttomanScribe]

If only you knew the freedom of being in Christ. I, and all people, that have accepted His salvation are assured a place in heaven. We don't need to desperately scrabble around for a place, doing good deeds, wearing the right things, praying in the right direction enough times a day, only to still not know whether we've made the grade or not. What a fearful faith that would be. It sounds loud, and painful and empty. In Jesus there is peace, and restoration and joy in knowing that you are loved by the Lord. Why would your god demand you not be happy? We are told that His joy will be our strength; that we are to rejoice always. He, in turn, rejoices over us with singing.

I personally would be wary of declaring myself saved. I know that even as a Muslim, I only achieve salvation through Allah's mercy, and His mercy is never guaranteed. Certainty breeds contempt. As my Sheikh once said to me, 'God is not something you can put in your pocket and call your friend, any whom are here, believing for certain they are going to heaven, should leave now'.

Joy, happiness, is fleeting. The only thing that endures is balance. Balance is justice, and God is Just.

That's another difference between our faiths, Ottoman. You wilfully act calm and well mannered when you catch your shadow. The Christian is made new when the Spirit of God abides in us; more loving, more calm. Islam seems to demand a shell of goodness and piety with little beneath. Christianity starts deep inside, and works its way up.

We would consider that one cannot have one without the other. I mean we differ in that you are starting from a rotten core, we from pure. A Muslim believes that at the centre, good or bad, we adhere to God's will, we testify to His existence. For the Christian (and this is partly a question), even the Saint is internally rotten and corrupt. The fire of Christ is meant to burn away the sin, while Islam is snow, that covers all in purity and makes even the ugly beautiful.

Do you find yourself more calm? Are you certain of salvation?

Just to note, there is nothing more an ascension to me than the daily salat (prayers). I am impressed by any Christian that takes 10 minutes out 5 times a day to just remember God.. to speak to Him in the words with which He spoke to us..

I suppose one could ask, does the clothing make one more spiritual?

No, not necessarily, but it can help, at least that is my opinion.

The only example of this I can give you is one of personal experience. I am a non-Jewish person, when God started to challange me about understanding Jesus' Jewishness and to worship him in a more Jewish/New Testament way, I tried very hard to find "the right" way to do this and the right utensils for the Feast Days that I thought I needed. It didnt happen, every time I tried to buy something I thought was "right" for the Sabbath for example God put a barrier there. I was walking round town one day, praying about this situation and God spoke to me and said "Catrin you are not Jewish, yes I want you to keep Sabbath, but you can do it in an English way, you dont need to get specific Jewish things to do it".

Sorry to completely change the topic, but God spoke to you? Forgive me for my surprise, in my religion, revelation is reserved for Messengers and Prophets (as), do Christians believe that God individually speaks to them, without the veil of Gabrial (as)?

Then I understood, worshipping God in that way he chooses to be worshipped, ie from the heart, is more important than having the right cups and plates and stuff.

Does this not place a false separation between the sacred and the profane? For the believer should not all things, even the superficial things of this realm of deception be a means of remembrance of God?

 

[OttomanScribe]

Character and action are related. Appearance isn't so important. Dressing a certain way means absolutely nothing. It's who you are and what you do that matters to God. This is a point Jesus pointed out again and again, when he did not ceremonially wash his hands (Mark 7:1-21), when he honored common people over religious leaders (Luke 10:25-37, Luke 18:9-14), and when he lashed out at those leaders for looking holy without really being holy (Matthew 23:1-28). Jesus did not waste his time with minutae; he focused on what really counts, and that is character. If there's one thing a righteous person must not do, it is believe that a well-dressed man would be any more capable or likely to love God or do good deeds than a man who is poorly dressed.

Should not one both look AND act holy? Is one automatically the former because they are not the later?

My understanding is that out of respect for the clothing, a desire not to appear what one is not, one can cause greater disrespect by leaving that which is good for one. The Turks changed Mohammed to Mehmet, for fear that they may disrespect him were their children to not live up to their name. However by leaving the name they gave greater disrespect, for they should have known that none can live up to him regardless. Similarly by not desiring outward as well as inward piety, is not one neglecting a part of their religion?

 

[Sketcher]

Should not one both look AND act holy? Is one automatically the former because they are not the later?

My understanding is that out of respect for the clothing, a desire not to appear what one is not, one can cause greater disrespect by leaving that which is good for one. The Turks changed Mohammed to Mehmet, for fear that they may disrespect him were their children to not live up to their name. However by leaving the name they gave greater disrespect, for they should have known that none can live up to him regardless. Similarly by not desiring outward as well as inward piety, is not one neglecting a part of their religion?

In Christianity, there is no looking holy. There is only acting holy. Again, one must not believe that someone who dresses well is going to love God or do good deeds more than someone who does not. That's prejudice. Now, one may expect that someone dressed as a priest will act well, and if he's really a priest, he's certainly expected to. But to say that he's better than some regular looking guy walking down the street is a prejudice, based on looks, against the guy walking down the street. Some truly great people of our faith were just regular looking Joes and Janes.

 

[OttomanScribe]

In Christianity, there is no looking holy. There is only acting holy. Again, one must not believe that someone who dresses well is going to love God or do good deeds more than someone who does not. That's prejudice. Now, one may expect that someone dressed as a priest will act well, and if he's really a priest, he's certainly expected to. But to say that he's better than some regular looking guy walking down the street is a prejudice, based on looks, against the guy walking down the street. Some truly great people of our faith were just regular looking Joes and Janes.

This conflicts somewhat to what others have written about Christianity being about belief rather than works. Rather than 'acting holy' is it not simply 'thinking holy' and little more?

Of course this kind of brings to light a possible miscommunication. The wearing of such clothes is not for others, it is for God and God alone. One who does it for others is inherently debasing it through that. Simply because some sheep are wolves in sheepskins does not mean that the sheep should dress as wolves.

 

[Sketcher]

This conflicts somewhat to what others have written about Christianity being about belief rather than works. Rather than 'acting holy' is it not simply 'thinking holy' and little more?

Well, we are called to believe the right things, and if we have the faith that God is after, we will do the right things. Yes, we are saved by faith, Jesus did all the heavy lifting, but to show respect and gratitude for that, we need to live a good life. He died for my sins, therefore I will sin less.

Of course this kind of brings to light a possible miscommunication. The wearing of such clothes is not for others, it is for God and God alone. One who does it for others is inherently debasing it through that. Simply because some sheep are wolves in sheepskins does not mean that the sheep should dress as wolves.

According to Christianity, God sees our hearts. What God is after is integrity, and he does not prescribe a certain way of dressing. He sees us all the time, anyway - when we're dressed to go out, when we're asleep, even when we're naked taking showers. Would anyone be more holy after getting dressed than he would be a few minutes earlier taking a shower? Our God is too big to let clothing really matter to him. Clothing is for people, and what it says about you. It's not as though we endorse looking like something you're not, like a pimp or a prostitute. But there is no Biblical instruction for people to specifically dress a certain way. How people perceive you based on your looks will change from culture to culture. A great strength of Christianity is that it's adaptable to that. What's appropriate in North America may not at all be suited to a tribal area. And it doesn't have to be, that's great.

 

[berachah]

OttomanScribe,

As with many Muslims I greatly admire the respect you have for your God. Sometimes I think we Christians become to familiar and blase in our relationship with our Father. Perhaps it is because Jesus Christ has made a way to enter into the presence of the Almighty, perhaps it is because we do not devote ourselves fully to the commands of the Holy Bible, but I wish it were not so.

However I think you err when you place emphasis on the external appearance. God is truly only concerned with that which is eternal and can enter the life hereafter. Our faith demands that we be a living witness to the unbelievers and if they be the poorest of the poor, the richest of the rich or of ancient culture from the Middle East, Christians should dress the same to make it easier to be accepted and to reveal the Light and Truth of Christ Jesus.

As for the prayer you mention. I think it must be quite tedious to hear the same prayers over and over again. I wonder if God would like to hear whats really on your heart. Through Jesus we have the opportunity to speak to and hear from God. Yes God does speak to each of His children just as a natural father would speak to his children.

Through His Holy Word we get revelation of His will for us, through prophetic words from other Christians, through visions and dreams, through inner conviction - God ministers to us daily through His Holy Spirit.

Brother, come out from under the burdensome covering of your turban and enter into the direct covering of the heavenly Father that is made possible through Jesus Christ. Put aside the natural things that seek to create an allusion and that allow for false humility and seek rather the living waters that clothe one with righteousness before God.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Well, we are called to believe the right things, and if we have the faith that God is after, we will do the right things. Yes, we are saved by faith, Jesus did all the heavy lifting, but to show respect and gratitude for that, we need to live a good life. He died for my sins, therefore I will sin less.

So good deeds can never lead to faith?

According to Christianity, God sees our hearts. What God is after is integrity, and he does not prescribe a certain way of dressing. He sees us all the time, anyway - when we're dressed to go out, when we're asleep, even when we're naked taking showers. Would anyone be more holy after getting dressed than he would be a few minutes earlier taking a shower? Our God is too big to let clothing really matter to him. Clothing is for people, and what it says about you. It's not as though we endorse looking like something you're not, like a pimp or a prostitute. But there is no Biblical instruction for people to specifically dress a certain way. How people perceive you based on your looks will change from culture to culture. A great strength of Christianity is that it's adaptable to that. What's appropriate in North America may not at all be suited to a tribal area. And it doesn't have to be, that's great.

So there are no biblical guidelines about dress? Nothing about wearing the clothing of the opposite sex (and therefore ensuring destinctions between clothes worn by men and those worn by women)? Nothing about head coverings for women in worship? Even in the NT? It has always been my understanding that the Christian abandonement of standards of dress is a fairly recent thing. It is never seemly to be without clothing, even though God is closer to us than our jugular and not even an ant crossing a huge dark rock in the depths of night escapes His notice.

It seems to me that there is a significance in such things. God asks Moses (as) to remove his shoes in order to approach the bush. The Old Testament contains many guidelines about male and female dress. Would God be that fickle as to have all such things be meaningful in the beginning but yet pointless later? Even the Grace preachers like Paul emphasise the importance of clothing onesself in the clothes of one's sex...

 

[berachah]

Good deeds are for one's own benefit and to build ones own righteousness and these count little before God. And how do you (a mere man) know and decide what is a good deed? Should you give a man a lift home and he go beat his wife to death, would it be considered a good deed? Should you give a begger some money and he drink himself into a coma with that money, would you consider it good?

However, if the Spirit of God (which is given to us through Jesus Christ) moves one to do a deed or a work or an act it must surely be good and have a good end. And then if God has moved one to do something can the individual glory in his act? No, he is but the servant of the master and can take no credit nor glory from his act of obedience.

In this I think our faiths greatly differ, O OttomanScribe.

 

[OttomanScribe]

As with many Muslims I greatly admire the respect you have for your God. Sometimes I think we Christians become to familiar and blase in our relationship with our Father. Perhaps it is because Jesus Christ has made a way to enter into the presence of the Almighty, perhaps it is because we do not devote ourselves fully to the commands of the Holy Bible, but I wish it were not so.

My thanks, I pray that this respect in reality is equal to its appearance to you. It is admittedly something I do find jarring when I come into contact with some Christians, I simply took it as part of the general irreverance that has seeped into this society as a whole.

However I think you err when you place emphasis on the external appearance. God is truly only concerned with that which is eternal and can enter the life hereafter. Our faith demands that we be a living witness to the unbelievers and if they be the poorest of the poor, the richest of the rich or of ancient culture from the Middle East, Christians should dress the same to make it easier to be accepted and to reveal the Light and Truth of Christ Jesus.

I think I continue to misrepresent myself, it is not my arguement to place emphasis on the outward, rather to plead that the outward and inward are always linked. Deeply and inseperably. Muslims should be known as what they are. Proud of their deen (way of life) and uncompromising in their dedication to it. Karate required me to bow to mankind, so I stopped taking Karate I am yet to see missionaries gettting their kit off to blend with those to whom they prosletyse.

I mean in some senses the differences is understandable. Muslims are not told to spread their religion. We are told to be, and others will recognise truth when they see it written upon our faces. 'Verily there is no compulsion in religion'.

As for the prayer you mention. I think it must be quite tedious to hear the same prayers over and over again. I wonder if God would like to hear whats really on your heart. Through Jesus we have the opportunity to speak to and hear from God. Yes God does speak to each of His children just as a natural father would speak to his children.

I do not find it such. 5 times a day one is reminded of the reality of things (and I doubt you would find problems with the following):

'In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way;
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.'

Of course, we also make dua (supplications) to God throughout our day, often in the same way that you do. We ask for things, and speak to God, though I would never presume Prophethood and expect to be blessed with divine speech.

Surely the role of prayer is not just asking for things, be it guidance or aid? Surely it is more important that we pray in worship, in supplication to the one whom we owe all things? Bismillah (in the name of God) when we begin to eat, Alhamdulillah (all praise is due to God) when we finish, Allahu Ackbar (God is Greater) in the face of tribulation and SubhanAllah (God is glorious, transcendant) when understanding escapes us or we are overwhelmed with the sheer magnitude of a glory beyond our ken...

Do Christians worship?

Brother, come out from under the burdensome covering of your turban and enter into the direct covering of the heavenly Father that is made possible through Jesus Christ. Put aside the natural things that seek to create an allusion and that allow for false humility and seek rather the living waters that clothe one with righteousness before God.

The Turban is my companion and my shield. I wear the clothes of my Beloved in that I may seek nearness to him. I place veils between my body and the world, in the hope that the veils between me and God are lifted in time. At night I wake as others sleep and the words of God tumble across my lips and around the room. I am exulted in glory and light, the prayer is the ascension of the believer, a raising up in prayers not asking anything of God, but rather being as we are supposed to be, a testification to Him as He is. He is One.. He beggeteth not, nor was He begotten.

All due respect, and apologies for my heartfelt reply, but I would never give that up for a religion that, as far as I can tell, only glorifies in humanity. Seperating the profane into a compartement that encompases all that we see, and leaving the sacred to the confines of their minds. I reply in kind. Seek faith and good deeds, seek submission to the One from whom all comes and all will return. A God that is not confined, and certainly can not lose anything of His nature in order to suffer.

 

[berachah]

O OttomanScribe,

I think you debate rather than seek to explore Christianity.

You have not read my comments clearly and have chosen to make assumptions on things I have not spoken of.

I too can speak of the many Muslims in my area who deny their faith daily and others who openly spread the faith and indeed seek to convert me. The false veneer of righteousness is quickly lost when I mention God's chosen people, the Jews, Americans and Jesus Christ. It never ceases to amaze me how quickly rage can rise when in fact we are all children of God. How can hate be so close to those that profess to be so close to God. That is an amazing thing to behold.

How do you rejoice in someone else's death and misery?

 

[Sketcher]

So good deeds can never lead to faith?

Not saving faith.

So there are no biblical guidelines about dress? Nothing about wearing the clothing of the opposite sex (and therefore ensuring destinctions between clothes worn by men and those worn by women)?

Old Testament, law of Moses.

Nothing about head coverings for women in worship? Even in the NT?

That's a cultural thing, as evidenced by the rest of the teaching in the passage. You have to take the present culture as part of the context, the teacher as another part of the context, and consistency with other commands as part of the context. All that adds up to this being a cultural standard, not a for-all-cultures standard.

It seems to me that there is a significance in such things. God asks Moses (as) to remove his shoes in order to approach the bush. The Old Testament contains many guidelines about male and female dress. Would God be that fickle as to have all such things be meaningful in the beginning but yet pointless later?

It's not a matter of being fickle. Jews have literally hundreds of laws that they have to keep. Gentiles are not bound to them. Gentiles are bound to some laws, which are much fewer and much more fundamental (the Noahide Laws), and furthermore, do not have to become Jews in order to become Christians.

 

[KAY99]

Hey Ottoman,

I just read through your thread, and I have found your different views quite interesting and refreshing. I am a Christian and I disagree with Muslim teachings, but I do find your dedication to that which you think is right and your strength of character to be quite commendable. I am sorry for the abuse that you have suffered, although I am not entirely sure where you are living, in the United States I am assuming?

I just wanted to quickly answer 1 or 2 of your questions.

"So good deeds can never lead to faith?"

In Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV version) you will find this verse that answers your question well "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

As for the original post regarding clothing... I agree with mostly all of the posters so far. The Bible is clear, even in the Old Testament: "1 Samuel 16:7 - "The Lord does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart."

But I just wanted to add that we too as Christians are called to be righteous in all aspects of our life, including our outward appearance.. "1 Timothy 2:9 - "And I want women to be modest in their appearance. They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes."

We certainly wouldn't want to draw people into lust, or to be immodest in our appearance, so I think Christians must take this into account as well.

I think the difference here is that our appearance should reflect our heart, that is a heart that is loving and willing to serve and please God. When the Bible talks about 'clothing oneself' it is talking about taking on the characteristics of Christ, not of physical clothing.

You said that 'Christians have a rotten heart' or something to that effect. As Christians we hold that when we surrender our life to Christ and accept him as our saviour and Lord we are given a new heart.. This is why you will often here the term 'born again Christian'. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

I do have to warn you that there are many who claim to be Christians but Christ is not in them so you might find it disconcerting to find such a wide range of behaviours and practices among those claiming to be Christians.. One can go to church their whole life and read their holy book every day but still not have a living faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Good deeds are for one's own benefit and to build ones own righteousness and these count little before God. And how do you (a mere man) know and decide what is a good deed? Should you give a man a lift home and he go beat his wife to death, would it be considered a good deed? Should you give a begger some money and he drink himself into a coma with that money, would you consider it good?

Good deeds are judged on intention, not on result. We are told to give money to those who ask, even if they come to us riding a horse. The greater sin would surely be to deny that man money, or a lift, out of judgement of what may occur. One must take refuge in God, for the bad in our actions and the bad in ourselves.

In this I think our faiths greatly differ, O OttomanScribe.

We have some similarities and some differences. I think one would be hard pressed to find a Muslim forum full of people telling others not to commit good deeds!

 

[OttomanScribe]

Just realised I missed a whole page of responses in my reply, will return to them when I return from work insha'Allah, my apologies!

 

[OttomanScribe]

I think you debate rather than seek to explore Christianity.

You are entitled to this view, though I am unsure how any exploration can occur without some measure of disagreement. Most of the debate that comes out of my posts seem to stem from my confusion about why a certain position is held over another one.. though in some cases it comes as a defence against what I percieve as attacks upon either myself or my religion.

You have not read my comments clearly and have chosen to make assumptions on things I have not spoken of.

Forgive my presumptions, where I am wrong I seek forgiveness in God. I was taken aback by the description of my Turban as burdensome, the implication that my faith is purely for appearances sake, the implication that I am possessing of some false humility (I feel often that I lack any sort, false or real)... and several other things that you said.

You have reacted somewhat defensively to characterisations of your faith in my words that you have seen as objectionable... can you understand my own objections to what I percieve as your negative characterisations?

I too can speak of the many Muslims in my area who deny their faith daily and others who openly spread the faith and indeed seek to convert me. The false veneer of righteousness is quickly lost when I mention God's chosen people, the Jews, Americans and Jesus Christ. It never ceases to amaze me how quickly rage can rise when in fact we are all children of God. How can hate be so close to those that profess to be so close to God. That is an amazing thing to behold.

The Americans are God's chosen people? Please clarify?

Forgive me but there seems to be a contradiction here, we are all children of God, yet I very much doubt that you would argue that Muslims are just as destined for salvation as Christians?

How do you rejoice in someone else's death and misery?

Who is doing as such? Not I...

Old Testament, law of Moses.

Some of these come from the NT. Indeed from Paul.

That's a cultural thing, as evidenced by the rest of the teaching in the passage. You have to take the present culture as part of the context, the teacher as another part of the context, and consistency with other commands as part of the context. All that adds up to this being a cultural standard, not a for-all-cultures standard.

What abrogates a biblical command according to culture? Is there a caveat in the description that says 'only in this cultural context'?

It's not a matter of being fickle. Jews have literally hundreds of laws that they have to keep. Gentiles are not bound to them. Gentiles are bound to some laws, which are much fewer and much more fundamental (the Noahide Laws), and furthermore, do not have to become Jews in order to become Christians.

So in essence the way someone believes has changed? Has God changed?

I just read through your thread, and I have found your different views quite interesting and refreshing. I am a Christian and I disagree with Muslim teachings, but I do find your dedication to that which you think is right and your strength of character to be quite commendable. I am sorry for the abuse that you have suffered, although I am not entirely sure where you are living, in the United States I am assuming?

Thankyou for your agreeable introduction I live in Australia actually. Don't be sorry, it was not you who did such things. I am not sorry, as we say 'the blessing is in the struggle'. I would not really say that I have strength of character, but I thank you for your compliment. JazakhAllah khyer, insha'Allah (God reward you for the good, if He wills it).

"So good deeds can never lead to faith?"

In Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV version) you will find this verse that answers your question well "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

We have a similar understanding, ie. that none enter paradise save through the mercy of God. However there is still a strong emphasis upon works as part of belief. The two are not contradictory. One's works mean nothing if they are for boasting. A false veneer of righteousness is the realm of the hypocrites (monafiqun) and they are worse off on the day of judgement than the khuffar (non-believers).

I may be incorrect in this, but the rejection of hypocrisy seems to have extended into almost a disdain of works in the way people talk about it...

As for the original post regarding clothing... I agree with mostly all of the posters so far. The Bible is clear, even in the Old Testament: "1 Samuel 16:7 - "The Lord does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart."

I agree, though I think we differ in the believe that the latter can effect the former (of course God 'looks' at all things, but that is not the point of the verse).

But I just wanted to add that we too as Christians are called to be righteous in all aspects of our life, including our outward appearance.. "1 Timothy 2:9 - "And I want women to be modest in their appearance. They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes."

A similar ruling to us.

I think the difference here is that our appearance should reflect our heart, that is a heart that is loving and willing to serve and please God. When the Bible talks about 'clothing oneself' it is talking about taking on the characteristics of Christ, not of physical clothing.

I think part of my point is that physical clothing can be a strong aid to achieving beneficial characteristics, just as works can bring one to greater faith. Worship can be a strong aid to belief, and even a friendly smile can be an act of worship if its intent is such.

You said that 'Christians have a rotten heart' or something to that effect. As Christians we hold that when we surrender our life to Christ and accept him as our saviour and Lord we are given a new heart.. This is why you will often here the term 'born again Christian'. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

Reading it like that makes it sound bad! Our hearts are like copper mirrors, they begin clean, but as life takes us along its way, they become tarnished. For the Muslim, good deeds and worship act as the earth that polishes our heart. Whereas for Christians it seems that belief is the fire that reforges the copper aknew.. hence the born again. Would this characterisation be correct?

I do have to warn you that there are many who claim to be Christians but Christ is not in them so you might find it disconcerting to find such a wide range of behaviours and practices among those claiming to be Christians.. One can go to church their whole life and read their holy book every day but still not have a living faith in Jesus Christ.

I feel that if either of us knew how many in our religions were actually believers... and how many were destined for the fire, we would never smile again. Allah guard us from that! Amin!

My thanks again for your post.

Peace.

 

[Sketcher]

Some of these come from the NT. Indeed from Paul.

Not that.

What abrogates a biblical command according to culture? Is there a caveat in the description that says 'only in this cultural context'?

It's only in that cultural context because it doesn't make sense if you apply it across all cultures. If you did, then you'd have to explain why it doesn't apply to the Jewish culture from which Paul came. Numbers 6 tells us pretty much the opposite of what 1 Corinthians 11:7 says (which Acts 18:18 tells us Paul himself practiced). Because God does not contradict himself or change his mind, we must deduce that 1 Corinthians 11:7 applies to that culture, and with it, the surrounding verses (v. 2-16) must as well. Verse 16 is about a contentious spirit, and how there is to be no tolerance for that.

So in essence the way someone believes has changed? Has God changed?

No, no change. God has always had different standards for Jews and Gentiles. Both Jews and Christians will tell you that.

 

[OttomanScribe]

It's only in that cultural context because it doesn't make sense if you apply it across all cultures. If you did, then you'd have to explain why it doesn't apply to the Jewish culture from which Paul came. Numbers 6 tells us pretty much the opposite of what 1 Corinthians 11:7 says (which Acts 18:18 tells us Paul himself practiced). Because God does not contradict himself or change his mind, we must deduce that 1 Corinthians 11:7 applies to that culture, and with it, the surrounding verses (v. 2-16) must as well. Verse 16 is about a contentious spirit, and how there is to be no tolerance for that.

That was to what I referred (Corinthians i mean). One could use that argument for all things surely? To explain away any contradiction?

 

[Sketcher]

That was to what I referred (Corinthians i mean). One could use that argument for all things surely? To explain away any contradiction?

If you're set on accepting that as a contradiction, which I do not, consider this: My explanation for this supposed contradiction is smarter than Mohammed's explaining away the contradictions in his teachings by saying that God can change his mind.