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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
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The ones that say they don't believe, or the ones that say they believe but don't?
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R.J.S said:
OK. So let's start with verse 20. No, we can start with 19, because it mentions the bread:
[bible]luke 22:19-21[/bible]
Judas is mentioned as being there after the bread and after this second "cup after supper," no?
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Andyman_1970
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BTW - "breaking bread" as it's referred to in Acts is not the Lord's Supper/Communion - at least not from the Judaic context of the 1st century.
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Andyman_1970 said:
Good point, to which I would answer, "yes and no."
It is hard to prove from scripture or other very early Christian writings that the Lord's Supper as practiced in the NT consisted of mere tokens of bread and wine, and not a full meal. Some theorize that NT passages refer to two things that occurred on the same occasion, the Lord's Supper and a full meal, called agape. This is not what seems to be implied in 1 Corinthians 11. The description there seems to associate the Lord's Supper with a full meal - one having economic ramifications, and not just a religious ritual.
I read a very small book earlier this quarter by John Howard Yoder called Body Politics. I HIGHLY recommend it to you and to your churches. It looks at 5 practices of the church, and their wider significance. Very thought-provoking and challenging, but at the same time teachable and practical. Yoder explains the economic significance of the Lord's Supper, as described in 1 Corinthians 11 and in Acts. It was intended to be a real sharing (koinonia or communion, as someone pointed out up-thread) and not just a symbolic sharing.
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R.J.S
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eldermike said:
Answwr the question if you will not mind. Should we let unbelievers partake of the one loaf?
1 Corinthians 10:21 gives us the answer:
"Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils"
Why? Well "For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread."
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Andyman_1970
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R.J.S said:Yes it is
LOL.........says who? You?
My statement regarding the breaking of bread is a product of studying the Judaic context of the early church (they were Jewish in case anyone forgot) -breaking bread for a Jewish community or gathering did not automatically mean "Lord's Supper" - it was a time of fellowship, a meal and Torah study.
The "breaking of bread" is called the b'rakhah in the Hebrew - Jews would begin a meal with bread say the b'rakhah over it and then break off a piece of the bread and eat it, so that the blessing of God specifically for His provision of bread to eat will not have been said in vain.
One rabbi in the 1st century wrote "If there is no meal there is no study of Toran, and if there is not study of Torah there is no meal."
Breaking bread means they ate together essentially.
Feel free to substantiate your "yes it is" with something other than your opinion.
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R.J.S said:
The only way you could defend your position is to take a position that church membership = salvation. The scripture you quote here simply means you can't serve two Masters, nothing more. Is your church salvation? If not you have no more clue who is serving which Master in your communion than the 11 that were with Jesus.
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SonOfThunder
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in answer to this question "should we allow unbelievers to break bread?"
This is where man sets himself up as Judge over another man. Church membership does not weed out those that declare with their mouths they are Christain and are not.
God has this job, not man. Memebership can also have the ambitions of man to have 'numbers'.
I have been denied taking the Lords Supper becasue of closed communion. Someone other than God has decided that membership determines my position as far as salvation goes.
James
eldermike said:
This is where man sets himself up as Judge over another man. Church membership does not weed out those that declare with their mouths they are Christain and are not.
God has this job, not man. Memebership can also have the ambitions of man to have 'numbers'.
I have been denied taking the Lords Supper becasue of closed communion. Someone other than God has decided that membership determines my position as far as salvation goes.
James
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So have I been kept from taking communion. I have prayed for them many times since that day. I was at a funeral of a friend in his home church. My friend most likey turned over in his grave when it was announced that you had to be a member of this denomination if you were to recieve communion.
Keep praying for them.
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After reading this thread, I have to say that the position of most Baptist churches has certainly changed since I was growing up in SBC churches. Closed communion (had to be Baptist) was definitely practiced. I think that's one reason it was usually held during a Sunday night service, as that was usually attended just by members.
Mary
Mary
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MrJim
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Amongst some of the "plainer" churches there is a closed communion. The reason it is done is because of the charge in 1Cor11:27. While most of us would view this as a personal accounting, the elders/pastors feel there is a responsibility on their part to ask their "flock" if they are worthy and in fellowship with Christ. So members will actually meet individually with the elder/pastor/deacon on this. It's not hard to see how this can become a legalistic abuse.
While this sounds kind of "out there" for those of us in "normal" churches, it is their way. They tend to look at our open communion as a "free-for-all" sort of thing. Probably somewhere in the middle is a better way? Have you ever refused communion when you knew you should have waited?
While this sounds kind of "out there" for those of us in "normal" churches, it is their way. They tend to look at our open communion as a "free-for-all" sort of thing. Probably somewhere in the middle is a better way? Have you ever refused communion when you knew you should have waited?
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jubilaki
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my old church (reformed) had a closed communion and then it was REALLY confusing coming to my new church (baptist) and seeing these youth around my age some younger takeing part in communion, the pastor now says that anyone that lover the lord and belives that he is your personal savior may take part in this, for a long while i didn't take part in communion as i didn't feel as though i was ready, this changed a few weeks ago as i gave my life and fully comited my like to jesus, i now take part in comunion where ever i go.
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