Clinton, Bush, Obama and war crimes

[mpok1519]

What makes you think they are not reputable? All the information is from public documents as was already pointed out. Pretty harsh claims to make without anything to go on, especially if anyone can access the information themselves.

What makes you think they are reputable?

As far as the idea goes, collateral damage caused by US military action probably wouldn't be considered terrorist actions since the civilians weren't the operative targets of these strikes. Terrorist attacks like the Boston bombing would be considered terroristic since they were targeting non combative civilians.

War is hell, there's no doubt about that. But the justification lies within the targets of military action and the rules of engagement.

 

[PatrickM]

You need to study your history, the decision for using the Atomic Bomb was partially because we ended up with a mass suicide situation on one of the islands we took over. In fact we lost some soldiers whom put themselves in harms way trying to prevent women from tossing themselves and their children off a cliff and onto the rocks below...

Also before we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, we dropped leaflets over the city, warning what we were about to do.

And you need to check your history, as leaflets were dropped mentioning TWELVE cities! And Hiroshima was NOT one of them.

You really think the unproven hypothesis of mass suicides was worth the fact of hundreds of thousands of severely burned, maimed people? Do you really think it was for their own good we dropped the bombs?

I can't believe, as human beings, we are even having this kind of discussion.

 

[PatrickM]

You doubt the resolve if the Japanese people.

They have a culture of no surrender, to fight to the last man and it's been entrenched into its warriors for thousands of years. They have probably fought more wars than America has battles.

Last man, yes. It is dishonorable to have women and children do men's work, fighting.

Which is why they needed to be shown their own destruction, visualized with 2 explosions by the likes of which they have never seen, and the promise of more.

We will never know how many men would have died in the proposed invasion of Japan but it would be certainly much more than those killed by the atomic bombs.

If it was in their culture to go down fighting, why did they surrender even after the mass destruction of their two cities?

And indeed we will never know how many, perhaps not as many as some think. But we do know approx. the number of actual dead. Of course only estimates, as so many were disintegrated on the spot.

 

[Billnew]

I think the sad reality is that the States is one of the worst nations for human rights (outside its borders) today. The war in Iraq exposed American brutality and the fact Guantanamo Bay still remains open is a huge stain for an open democracy like the US. That's not to mention Cold War covert missions in Latin America and Africa or Vietnam, or the support of terrorist governments that oppress their people like that of the Saudis...

There is no reason to close a prison just because something wrong was done there.
End the torture, end the detainment of people that have not been convicted of any crimes, the prison is a safe place to hold prisoners that keeps them from being a danger to the US(should they escape) and they can't claim any benefits of being on US soil.

NUKES; using a nuke will get the attention of the world, one nuke will polute alot of a world region with deadly fallout.
Killing civilians in war was not a concern during war back then. They were not specifically targeted, but the actions were not stopped just because civilians were in the way.
Nukes destroy alot of ground and everything that sits on it, and leaves the land unsafe for use for decades.
I would say that anything these days that would kill so many innocent people would be terror today, but back then it was merely a device to destroy the will of the enemy.

I will not second guess the leader that made this decision back then. I hope no human ever choses to use a device against humans ever again. You can't uninvent anything, as long as there are nukes in the world, the larger countries must maintain a nuke deterant. The only way to prevent someone from using one is MAD, mutual assured destruction.

The only people that will use a nuke are likely the insane small country dictators or terrorists that don't care who they hurt or the cost of using such a device. Hard to use "MAD" when a terror group can be allowed to be annonymous, even though most know each group has ties to certain goverments.

 

[GarfieldJL]

Go Ahead, Admit It: George W. Bush Is a Good Man - NationalJournal.com

I suggest people read it.

 

[IzzyPop]

Go Ahead, Admit It: George W. Bush Is a Good Man - NationalJournal.com

I suggest people read it.

*giggle* 'He bankrupted the country, got us involved in 2 wars of choice, was terrible in a crisis, and failed to prevent the largest terrorist attack on US soil. But he was a great guy!'

 

[GarfieldJL]

*giggle* 'He bankrupted the country, got us involved in 2 wars of choice, was terrible in a crisis, and failed to prevent the largest terrorist attack on US soil. But he was a great guy!'

Obama has spent more money in under 4 years than Bush did in his entire Presidency....

Seriously, just stop with the Bush-derangement syndrome already...

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

The argument has been made, weak as it is. So who's life is more valuable? Ask the survivors with maimed limbs and charred skin. I mean survivors of Hiroshima, not Boston...

Are we including the tens of millions in Asia under Japanese occupation (until Japan surrendered after the atomic bombs were dropped) in the comparison?

 

[PatrickM]

Are we including the tens of millions in Asia under Japanese occupation (until Japan surrendered after the atomic bombs were dropped) in the comparison?

Tens of millions? Source, please.

Still begs the question, who are we to say some lives are not as valuable (Japanese) as others. It's ok to murder some innocent lives to save others?

 

[Zanting]

Anyone one committing criminal acts, in this case war crimes, should be prosecuted, regardless of who they are. The crimes of the past have been shoved under the rug, ignored and left unchallenged. This report offers an opportunity for Americans not to repeat mistakes in the past and take back their country. The ones who put this report together have taken the first brave step to accomplish just that. Unfortunately, it will likely be treated as nonsense and swept under the rug again, and history repeats itself.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

Tens of millions? Source, please.

I would have thought it was obvious history, but apparently not. Perhaps some study is in order.

Singapore, Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia, China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Cambodia - all still occupied until the Japanese surrender in 1945. Starving, dying, and being tortured under the Japanese every single day while the occupation was in place.

Still begs the question, who are we to say some lives are not as valuable (Japanese) as others. It's ok to murder some innocent lives to save others?

I agree it's not an easy question, made more difficult by the nature of warfare in that time (no precision munitions for one). In WW2 civilians were going to die in pretty much any attack on any target. So there is the question of how many lives to save and where - civilians around military targets in Hiroshima, other Japanese civilians in areas where the invasion would take place if the bomb wasn't used, or civilians under Japanese rule elsewhere.

 

[Christian7PraiseJesus]

Clinton, Bush and Obama: US War Crimes over Three Administrations | Global Research

I'm starting this thread because the topic came up in another thread regarding the Boston bombing.

Was the Boston bombing a distraction from this report being released on Tuesday? At least, that is what has been proposed.

Whether it was or wasn't, it is an important report with information that should be of concern for to Americans.

Has anyone else read about it?

OK, first off, I'm anti-war, as Jesus, who is God, stated "Those who wield the sword, die by the sword." and "No more of this!" to Peter as He healed the man's ear who was severed off, and said "Suffer not ye this."

Further, Jesus stated, "Blessed be the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God."

John the baptist, before he baptizes Jesus, God, in the river states to the soldiers in Luke, "Do NO violence."

I'm anti-violence of all kinds, and ANY human taking the life of another human being in ANY circumstance (killing them!) is murder, which is its definition, and WRONG. I'm anti-torture!

Anyhow, I was reading the article and came upon this: "over injected with IV fluids to make him urinate on himself."

Except... I know from Physiology this is not possible.

When a person injects a person with IV fluids, it CANNOT get removed from urination. Injecting a person with IV fluids can cause HEMOLYSIS of the erythrocytes (red blood cells) because it causes hyptotonicity in the blood, making the water rush into the cells to decrease the difference of water on both sides (red blood cells would have less water, higher solute concentration).

So this would KILL them. YOU CANNOT INJECT PEOPLE WITH IV FLUIDS AND EXPECT THAT IT CAN GET "urinated out" IT CAUSES DEATH! There were studies where IV fluid was switched with distilled water and the people died from hemolysis because the % of solutes in the water was not equal to the blood's concentration. How could people be so horrible?

If they were really putting excess IV fluids into the person and "PRETENDING" they can "urinate it out" they don't know ANYTHING. It is very dangerous and if this is true this could have killed some people from hemolysis (bursting of the red blood cells).

.... I'll read on now.

 

[PatrickM]

I would have thought it was obvious history, but apparently not.Perhaps some study is in order.

Hyperbole is not obvious history. These links say nothing of tens of millions. There weren't even tens of millions in total living in the whole Pacific Rim at the time.

I agree it's not an easy question, made more difficult by the nature of warfare in that time (no precision munitions for one). In WW2 civilians were going to die in pretty much any attack on any target. So there is the question of how many lives to save and where - civilians around military targets in Hiroshima, other Japanese civilians in areas where the invasion would take place if the bomb wasn't used, or civilians under Japanese rule elsewhere.

Please. No precision weapons aren't even a comparison to an atomic bomb. And it never was a question of how many civilian lives were to be killed.

Read up on the decision about what targets onto which to drop the bomb. Hiroshima was NOT primarily a military target. It had a port of debarkation. And a lot of wooden structures.

This is fruitless. Unless you were Japanese living there at the time, I guess any justification could be used.

 

[Zanting]

OK, first off, I'm anti-war, as Jesus, who is God, stated "Those who wield the sword, die by the sword." and "No more of this!" to Peter as He healed the man's ear who was severed off, and said "Suffer not ye this."

Further, Jesus stated, "Blessed be the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God."

John the baptist, before he baptizes Jesus, God, in the river states to the soldiers in Luke, "Do NO violence."

I'm anti-violence of all kinds, and ANY human taking the life of another human being in ANY circumstance (killing them!) is murder, which is its definition, and WRONG. I'm anti-torture!

Anyhow, I was reading the article and came upon this: "over injected with IV fluids to make him urinate on himself."

Except... I know from Physiology this is not possible.

When a person injects a person with IV fluids, it CANNOT get removed from urination. Injecting a person with IV fluids can cause HEMOLYSIS of the erythrocytes (red blood cells) because it causes hyptotonicity in the blood, making the water rush into the cells to decrease the difference of water on both sides (red blood cells would have less water, higher solute concentration).

So this would KILL them. YOU CANNOT INJECT PEOPLE WITH IV FLUIDS AND EXPECT THAT IT CAN GET "urinated out" IT CAUSES DEATH! There were studies where IV fluid was switched with distilled water and the people died from hemolysis because the % of solutes in the water was not equal to the blood's concentration. How could people be so horrible?

If they were really putting excess IV fluids into the person and "PRETENDING" they can "urinate it out" they don't know ANYTHING. It is very dangerous and if this is true this could have killed some people from hemolysis (bursting of the red blood cells).

.... I'll read on now.

Indeed it is dangerous...I remember a story that came out a year or more ago about a girl who was given ecstasy without her knowing. She was tripping really bad so her friends had the bright idea to make her drink water to flush it out. She died from too much water in her system.

...makes you wonder what else might have been in the IV fluid????

 

[Christian7PraiseJesus]

Clinton, Bush and Obama: US War Crimes over Three Administrations | Global Research

I'm starting this thread because the topic came up in another thread regarding the Boston bombing.

Was the Boston bombing a distraction from this report being released on Tuesday? At least, that is what has been proposed.

Whether it was or wasn't, it is an important report with information that should be of concern for to Americans.

Has anyone else read about it?

http://www.pieceofthepalace.com/torture_report2013.pdf

The entire report is right there - all 602 pages of it.

If everyone in America and the World read this report - even just ten pages of it - there would be so much opposition the torture would HAVE to end.

This is a crime against humanity.

Sickening.. disgusting... There is no Jesus, God in this AT ALL.

I read from 207-250... (scanned some pages at the end).

Going all around the world to every country attacking, killing (murdering), and torturing people, DEFRAUDING everywhere. Romania? Lithuania? Attacking Italian? Attacking UK person? Attacking Swedes? EVERYWHERE!

"Do NOT killl.... do NOT defraud."
Jesus's, God's words, Mark 10:18

Some horrifying excerpts:

"On December 7, 2002, heartbeat slowed to 35 beats per minute, and he had to be taken to the hospital for a CT scan of his brain and ultrasound of a swollen leg to check for blood clots.131On December 13, pulse again slowed to 38 beats per minute, but when it rose to 42 beats perminute a doctor determined that no medical intervention was necessary.
132His interrogation logalso showed rapid fluctuations in weight, possibly due to forcible hydration." Pg 238 (221 on document)
That's twice lower than Bradycardia, which is 60 beats per minute. Dangerous. Probably from the constant beating and torture.

"
[F]or reasons of physical fatigue or psychological resignation, the subject
may simply give up, allowing excessive filling of the airways and loss of
consciousness. An unresponsive subject should be righted immediately, and
the interrogator should deliver a sub-xyphoid thrust to expel the water. If thisfails to restore normal breathing, aggressive medical intervention is required.
Any subject who has reached this degree of compromise is not considered anappropriate candidate for the waterboard." pg 231 (214 on document)

"
In a possible reference to the same incident, later told the Red Cross that
during the period when he was undergoing waterboarding, “I collapsed and lost consciousnesson several occasions. Eventually the torture was stopped by the intervention of the doctor.”He stated, however, that the intervention came long after he suffered severe physical painand prolonged mental stress. described waterboarding as causing severe pain,repeated vomiting and hopelessness: “I struggled against the straps, trying to breathe, but it washopeless. I thought I was going to die. I lost control of my urine. Since then I still lose control ofmy urine when under stress.”
pg 228 (211)


7
"Problematic record-keeping, and failure to report suspicions of abuse, extended to homicides. In several cases, prisoners were initially reported to have died of natural causes when their deaths actually resulted from abuse. The death of is one example. An initial press release about death stated that “said he didn’t feel well and subsequently lost consciousness. The questioning him found no pulse, then conducted CPR and called for medical authorities. According to the on-sitesurgeon, it appeared died of natural causes. 178 A later autopsy, however, revealed that had died of asphyxia and chest compression after an interrogator stuffed him into a sleeping bag and sat on his chest. He had suffered “massive” bruising on his torso, arms, and legs (though not his head or face), and five broken ribs.179" pg 244 (227)

"the subject’s airflow is disrupted by the firm application of a damp cloth over the air passages; the interrogator applies a small amount ofwater to the cloth in a controlled manner. By contrast, the interrogator[redacted] continuously applied large volumes of water to a cloth that coveredthe detainee’s mouth and nose." pg 227 (210)

---------

We have to end this crime against humanity. I know there is MUCH more than what is included in here. But how? The only way I can think of is to tell as many as possible and spread the document around, then everyone will be against it and vote them out. Political pressure from other countries whose people in their nation are attacked?

This group who forgets Jesus, God, seems to want to torture and kill in endless warfare against His commandments.
THIS HAS TO STOP. DO SOMETHING!






(For those in other countries, you're lucky you don't live here and have such a large military)

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

Hyperbole is not obvious history. These links say nothing of tens of millions. There weren't even tens of millions in total living in the whole Pacific Rim at the time.

Hyperbole - Oh dear - I guess you didn't bother to read the links then. Or realise that the area I mentioned included two of the most populous countries in the world. China had around 500 million alone at the time of the conclusion of WW2 (not all of whom were suffering under the Japanese). Throw in another 70 million or so for Indonesia. Let alone the others.

Read up on the decision about what targets onto which to drop the bomb. Hiroshima was NOT primarily a military target. It had a port of debarkation. And a lot of wooden structures..

And two command centres including that for the defence of Japan's southern front. And 40,000 troops, and a communications centre....

This is fruitless. Unless you were Japanese living there at the time, I guess any justification could be used.

And unless you lived under the Japanese occupation, you have no idea what they went through or how relieved they were when the war ended early because of the use of the atomic bomb. Members of my family did and they were fortunate - not so everyone else.

 

[USincognito]

Also before we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, we dropped leaflets over the city, warning what we were about to do.

You got a citation for this because according to the Wiki entry, that didn't happen.
Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[USincognito]

Tens of millions? Source, please.

There were tens of millions in occupied Manchuria alone.
Manchukuo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Still begs the question, who are we to say some lives are not as valuable (Japanese) as others. It's ok to murder some innocent lives to save others?

Yes. When we're talking about 1-10 million dead Japanese civilians, on the home islands - not to mention a million American casualties and who knows how many Japanese soldiers and sailors.

 

[Zanting]

There were tens of millions in occupied Manchuria alone.
Manchukuo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Yes. When we're talking about 1-10 million dead Japanese civilians, on the home islands - not to mention a million American casualties and who knows how many Japanese soldiers and sailors.

How about getting back to the present and what is happening today.
That is what this thread is about.

 

[USincognito]

How about getting back to the present and what is happening today.
That is what this thread is about.

Sure. Neither President Clinton, nor Bush, nor Obama is a war criminal.

That germane enough?