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Climate change, deforestation, mass extinction...

Jane_the_Bane

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Environmental issues may not be exactly a question of religion or faith - yet bizarrely enough, there are people out there who treat them as if they were. Bafflingly enough, conservative think tanks who feel that any change to the status quo would endanger their future profits have managed to convince a considerable portion of the population that it's all a big controversy, that the verdict is not yet in, and that those who'd call for an immediate response to these threats are loopy fanatics who don't know what's what.

And all the while, the rainforests keep on dwindling, the oceans are not only plagued by growing garbage patches but also subject to acidification, which may cause the entire marine ecosystem to collapse from the bottom up, species everywhere are disappearing at a rate that you'd otherwise associate with major natural catastrophes, our own species grows at an alarming rate, and we are using up natural resources at a pace that would require several planets at the same time to sustain.

The thing is: none of this is a controversy. The verdict of the scientific community (i.e. people who deal with these matters professionally and have all the data at hand) is virtually unanimous. To deny it and pretend that it's still nothing more than some wishy-washy hypothesis is the rough equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and going "LALALA!!! I CANNOT HEAR YOU!!"

So... how does your religion relate to the devastating effect our post-industrial species has on the planet, and what does it have to say about combating the mess we've created?
 
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catholichomeschooler

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Environmental issues may not be exactly a question of religion or faith - yet bizarrely enough, there are people out there who treat them as if they were. Bafflingly enough, conservative think tanks who feel that any change to the status quo would endanger their future profits have managed to convince a considerable portion of the population that it's all a big controversy, that the verdict is not yet in, and that those who'd call for an immediate response to these threats are loopy fanatics who don't know what's what.

And all the while, the rainforests keep on dwindling, the oceans are not only plagued by growing garbage patches but also subject to acidification, which may cause the entire marine ecosystem to collapse from the bottom up, species everywhere are disappearing at a rate that you'd otherwise associate with major natural catastrophes, our own species grows at an alarming rate, and we are using up natural resources at a pace that would require several planets at the same time to sustain.

The thing is: none of this is a controversy. The verdict of the scientific community (i.e. people who deal with these matters professionally and have all the data at hand) is virtually unanimous. To deny it and pretend that it's still nothing more than some wishy-washy hypothesis is the rough equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and going "LALALA!!! I CANNOT HEAR YOU!!"

So... how does your religion relate to the devastating effect our post-industrial species has on the planet, and what does it have to say about combating the mess we've created?



You are the victim of propaganda.

FYI:

Yet new research published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) finds that quite recently—just 500 years ago—a significant portion of the southern Amazon was not the tall-canopied forest it is today, but savannah.

"These results were very surprising. We went to Bolivia hoping to find evidence of the kinds of crops being grown by ancient Amerindian groups, and to try to find how much impact they had on the ancient forest. What we found was that they were having virtually no effect on the forest, in terms of past deforestation, because it didn't exist there until much later," said lead author John Carson with the University of Reading.

Read more at A garden or a wilderness? One-fifth of the Amazon may have been savannah before the arrival of Europeans
 
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LoAmmi

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I keep reading the article and I keep failing to see the part that says we shouldn't worry about deforestation because in the past there was a savannah that allowed people to plant crops without deforesting.

I might just be stupid. Could you point it out to me?

You are the victim of propaganda.

FYI:

Yet new research published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) finds that quite recently—just 500 years ago—a significant portion of the southern Amazon was not the tall-canopied forest it is today, but savannah.

"These results were very surprising. We went to Bolivia hoping to find evidence of the kinds of crops being grown by ancient Amerindian groups, and to try to find how much impact they had on the ancient forest. What we found was that they were having virtually no effect on the forest, in terms of past deforestation, because it didn't exist there until much later," said lead author John Carson with the University of Reading.

Read more at A garden or a wilderness? One-fifth of the Amazon may have been savannah before the arrival of Europeans
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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You are the victim of propaganda.

Right back at ya!

This is not a controversy. The scientific verdict is as unanimous as it gets, at a whopping 97% - and we're not talking about vague hypotheses, either.

I bet you can also trump up some sites that say burning excessive amounts of fossil fuels is completely harmless, just as tobacco companies were still insisting that their products were neither carcinogenic nor addictive up until the early 1990s.

But ignore the facts, ignore the scientific verdict if you want. Just ask yourself this: cui bono?
 
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catholichomeschooler

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Right back at ya!

This is not a controversy. The scientific verdict is as unanimous as it gets, at a whopping 97% - and we're not talking about vague hypotheses, either.

I bet you can also trump up some sites that say burning excessive amounts of fossil fuels is completely harmless, just as tobacco companies were still insisting that their products were neither carcinogenic nor addictive up until the early 1990s.

But ignore the facts, ignore the scientific verdict if you want. Just ask yourself this: cui bono?


What is excess fossil fuels?

What impact does greater CO2 levels have on our planet?


Where did these fossil fuels come from?
 
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awitch

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So... how does your religion relate to the devastating effect our post-industrial species has on the planet, and what does it have to say about combating the mess we've created?

It should be common sense to protect the environment and clean up some of the damage we do.

Part of practicing my religion calls for such work. For example, I've been involved in RiverKeepers, Adopt-A-Highway, and various local cleanup events. My daughter and I are currently looking at building bat houses to help out the bat population here in Jersey.

I'm not trying to save the world; I just want to do my share and maybe make up for the people who don't care because they think Jesus is going to be coming back any minute.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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What is excess fossil fuels?
Burning huge amounts of coal, oil, and gas. You know, the stuff that generates all the smog over larger cities?

What impact does greater CO2 levels have on our planet?
Rising CO2 levels are one among many factors that contribute to global warming. The climate is a complex system, so CO2 is but a little part of the problem.

Where did these fossil fuels come from?
As the name suggests, they are the fossilized remains of certain organisms.

During the carboniferous, large quantities of wood were buried without decomposing, because the (micro-)organisms capable of processing tree bark had not yet developed.
Crude oil, in turn, consists mostly of fossilized zooplankton or algae.


But I predict that you are not really interested in these answers.
 
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catholichomeschooler

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Burning huge amounts of coal, oil, and gas. You know, the stuff that generates all the smog over larger cities?


Rising CO2 levels are one among many factors that contribute to global warming. The climate is a complex system, so CO2 is but a little part of the problem.


As the name suggests, they are the fossilized remains of certain organisms.

During the carboniferous, large quantities of wood were buried without decomposing, because the (micro-)organisms capable of processing tree bark had not yet developed.
Crude oil, in turn, consists mostly of fossilized zooplankton or algae.


But I predict that you are not really interested in these answers.


You didn't answer the question. What is excess fossil fuel consumption?


There is zero conclusive evidence that CO2 level increases impact temperature. In fact, CO2 level increases speed plant growth, leading to a greener planet.

So, all the fossil fuel now in the ground was once on the surface.

Got it.
 
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Zoness

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Environmental issues may not be exactly a question of religion or faith - yet bizarrely enough, there are people out there who treat them as if they were. Bafflingly enough, conservative think tanks who feel that any change to the status quo would endanger their future profits have managed to convince a considerable portion of the population that it's all a big controversy, that the verdict is not yet in, and that those who'd call for an immediate response to these threats are loopy fanatics who don't know what's what.

And all the while, the rainforests keep on dwindling, the oceans are not only plagued by growing garbage patches but also subject to acidification, which may cause the entire marine ecosystem to collapse from the bottom up, species everywhere are disappearing at a rate that you'd otherwise associate with major natural catastrophes, our own species grows at an alarming rate, and we are using up natural resources at a pace that would require several planets at the same time to sustain.

The thing is: none of this is a controversy. The verdict of the scientific community (i.e. people who deal with these matters professionally and have all the data at hand) is virtually unanimous. To deny it and pretend that it's still nothing more than some wishy-washy hypothesis is the rough equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and going "LALALA!!! I CANNOT HEAR YOU!!"

So... how does your religion relate to the devastating effect our post-industrial species has on the planet, and what does it have to say about combating the mess we've created?

My pagan beliefs and my personal worldview see it as one of the top sources of conflict in the world and maybe the biggest issue we've yet dealt with as a species. The decline of available water and food as well as energy resources are going to result in wars the world over to control the remaining resources.

As an individual there are limits to what I can do but part of my naturalist pagan beliefs is respect and reverence for nature which includes me realizing that I am a guest in this world; I tend to watch what I throw out, I don't drive as much (I hate driving anyways), I consume less and recycle more. I attempt to communicate with local politicians about the damaging effects of various pollutants, sometimes we're lucky and there is policy change. But not often enough.
 
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gord44

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Yeah I don't see this ending well for this version of humanity. I do what I can but I can't see this getting any better. I don't ignore the problem but I don't really see a way out. Human greed and consumption can not be satiated. The end will come sooner or later.
 
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Arthra

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Sometime ago the Baha'i International community issued some statements relating to the issues of climate change...

Sustainable Development and the Environment of the World:
An Overview

by Arthur Lyon Dahl

1997-10

State of the world and future trends

The environmental problems of the planet and the challenge of achieving more sustainable forms of development have been high on the political agenda for some years. As we consider the role and activities of a Bahá'í Environment Forum, it may help to sketch out what we understand about the world and where it is going from a Bahá'í perspective, how the Bahá'í community has responded to the opportunities created, and what kind of roles might be appropriate to a network of Bahá'is concerned about these issues.

Our present world is clearly on an unsustainable course environmentally and economically. The recent UNEP Global Environment Outlook report shows that the state of the world environment continues to deteriorate overall despite progress in some areas. Extremes of wealth and poverty are also increasing within and between many nations, a trend which is socially unsustainable. The population continues to grow, the well-off consume an ever-increasing proportion of the world's resources while the numbers of very poor increase, and growing damage to the Earth's productive capacity constrains future options. Our civilization is living beyond its means, accumulating not only financial debt, but resource debt, pollution debt, and the human debt represented by poverty and deprivation. There are known risks of increased damage and suffering from air and water pollution, resource depletion, climate change, and other environmental problems. We can also be certain that there will be surprises from interactions between complex systems, unexpected chemical effects, new or resurgent diseases, and overconfidence in technological fixes. Bahá'u'lláh's warning on civilization carried to excess is sufficiently clear on this point.

When we look at the Bahá'í vision of future society, we can see how different it is from life today, showing that fundamental changes are required, and indeed inevitable, in our social and economic structures and life-styles. The critique of the present system in The Promise of World Peace is very clear. We know that the present-day order is lamentably defective and will soon be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. (Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings, p. 216 and 7). How and when this will happen we cannot predict, but the process of change could at times be traumatic or even catastrophic, and the transition at the end of this century will be significant. The speed with which the former Soviet Union collapsed should be an appropriate warning. These events should not worry us, as they are part of God's plan for the world, and they will create many opportunities to teach the Faith and to introduce constructive change....

Source:

Sustainable Development and the Environment of the World

Also see:

http://bahai-library.com/dahl_transforming_environments
 
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CherubRam

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Environmental issues may not be exactly a question of religion or faith - yet bizarrely enough, there are people out there who treat them as if they were. Bafflingly enough, conservative think tanks who feel that any change to the status quo would endanger their future profits have managed to convince a considerable portion of the population that it's all a big controversy, that the verdict is not yet in, and that those who'd call for an immediate response to these threats are loopy fanatics who don't know what's what.

And all the while, the rainforests keep on dwindling, the oceans are not only plagued by growing garbage patches but also subject to acidification, which may cause the entire marine ecosystem to collapse from the bottom up, species everywhere are disappearing at a rate that you'd otherwise associate with major natural catastrophes, our own species grows at an alarming rate, and we are using up natural resources at a pace that would require several planets at the same time to sustain.

The thing is: none of this is a controversy. The verdict of the scientific community (i.e. people who deal with these matters professionally and have all the data at hand) is virtually unanimous. To deny it and pretend that it's still nothing more than some wishy-washy hypothesis is the rough equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and going "LALALA!!! I CANNOT HEAR YOU!!"

So... how does your religion relate to the devastating effect our post-industrial species has on the planet, and what does it have to say about combating the mess we've created?
The bible talks about all of these things.
Plagues, Famine, Pestilence, Earthquakes, Floods, Tornadoes, Droughts, Wars---
http://www.christianforums.com/t7746816/
 
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morningstar2651

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I'm curious how many of the people that reject the statistical and mathematical support for global warming simultaneously accept the statistical and mathematical techniques and models used to improve a business's performance, such as calculus for calculating price elasticity and revenue optimization.

I wonder how many of these businessmen reject the science behind evolution but have no qualms in using an evolutionary algorithm to forecast demand for their products.

Data Scientists are the big trendy thing to hire in big business these days, and a lot of partially-informed CEOs believe that big data can do anything they want it to...but the moment the data tells a story they don't like, what do they do? Ignore it?
 
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awitch

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Gxg (G²)

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how does your religion relate to the devastating effect our post-industrial species has on the planet, and what does it have to say about combating the mess we've created?
Funny that the subject was brought up in this thread - as I just got a book the other day on the issue entitled "Food, Farming and Faith" by Gary W. Fick (a professor of agronomy at Cornell and scientist who is a Christian).



It addresses the many ways that the theistic worldview requires one to believe that taking care of our world is not a small issues. And it's something that many others have sought to do for some time. Within the history of the Church, this is a very big deal


Where I'm from and what I grew up with, if you claim to believe in God and yet trash the environment or ignore where one must continually learn how to adapt in order to take care of it, you're no different than a teenager trashing their room /the house they live in and then saying they love their parents who took the time to provide it. We cannot claim to love the artist and yet defame his artwork - and having a spiritual view of the world with all things being interconnected helps greatly in preventing a lack of appreciation for things. I wish others were more concerned with addressing issues as they are....and some of this I have shared before on repeatedly - as have other Christians, like in places such as
Mother Earth, Heavenly Father, and How the Bible Counsels Our Views on Environmentalism | Pastor James Hein's Blog

For me, whatever your leaning is with theism will determine the theistic outcome you get - and having a theistic worldview that goes toward Panentheism is key in not taking environmental issues lightly. Believing God is "out there, somewhere" leads to having a great disconnect from taking the world seriously - whereas believing God is only concerned for humans leads to ignoring where everything is interconnected, even as it concerns the animals killed....or the land damaged (as Native Americans often noted).

With Climate Change, I am always shocked to see others not take the matter seriously - as if there's no warming happening on any level and things are simply remaining the same. Moreover, it is saddening to witness the ways that others have divorced addressing the issue from the ways that people are impacted. In example, last year I had to do some research for an organization I was with on for a project - as it is on the issue of the Inuit/Eskimos and the ways that their ways of life are being harmed (specifically food security/environment based on ice) by much of the globilization going on near them - in addition to the devestation happening to the food supply and the high prices being placed on foods in the North with the markets.....and many communities not being able to afford it at all. More was written elsewhere in a thread I made on the issue - seen in Eskimo Eradication: Why is the U.S aiding the destruction/starvation of the Inuit?. Naturally, being Orthodox, it was not difficult finding solidarity with them on the struggles they were having.
I have a deep love for Native American culture - and historically, they have a beautiful heritage. With Alaska, I know of others who did amazing work in helping the Eskimos - even though others seemed to act as if what's happening to Eskimos up North is a small issue.

There are indeed a number of striking similarities between Orthodox and American Indian cosmologies, particularly the Inuit/Aleut tribes of Alaska - AND thus, it's not an issue to speak for them when it comes to the wisdom they were seeking to advocate with taking climate change seriously. Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew shared on the issue some very excellent information:



With Mass EXTINCTION of animal species, many people assume it happens naturally without any kind of contributions from humanity. However, we don't realize how much we've played a big part in the extensive extinction that has occurred. In example, Poaching is something I'm amazed others take lightly..(more discussed elsewhere in #47 ). Years ago, I was saddened (at least one of the stories on it) to learn on how a species of rhino was wiped out recently:


For another example, the fish are feeling it very hard lately, as the plight of the world's fish supply due to overfishing is already clear. Now fish stocks face another pressure as fish will shrink up to a quarter by 2050 as a result of climate change, according to a new study. The findings, published in the journal Nature Climate Change, were based on a computer projection "to see how fish would react to lower levels of oxygen in the water," Matt McGrath at BBC News writes. One can read more in Climate Change Will Shrink Fish Size - Business Insider. Setting the stage for man to kill himself in multiple ways (death by a thousand cuts) when it comes to being wasteful with the environment.

Some of the things that man has done toward the world are not surprising....as man often tends to do things in ways that damage him in the end due to how he has yet to learn how to take care of his neighbor - and when desperation sets in, so does bad behavior. This can be see, for example, in MANY nations in Asia where the economy is struggling due to exploitation and impoverishment/neglect of others --the evidence of this seen in many of the trades they allow/support there which are apart of the Black Market/Underworld dealings others turn to for survival.

Smuggling wildlife is one of those things.....as it is one of the top industries in the world---a sympton of the black market and organized crime....and in many ways, a rape of the natural world due to the bad economies of certain Asian nations. Some of these animals are killed for traditional medicines as well as for food...sometimes, exotic foods. And others are simply killed for the sake of decorations, as is the case with the massive eradication of elephants for their ivory tusks. ....with many of them used in Catholic churches. Shocked me seeing the ways that even believers were involved in the massive slaughter. Cebu Archbishop Jose Palma said the Catholic Church does not condone killing animals to make their parts into religious items, like taking the tusks of elephants and carving these into ivory statues.

Was reading on that at home years ago when considering the poaching of elephants, smuggling of elephant tusks and the illegal trade of ivory worldwide that were highlighted in a recent National Geographic article, “Blood Ivory” subtitled “Ivory Worship” written by Bryan Christy. ..with a priest in the Philippines being involved in a controversy over the issue of illegal trade for making religious items (more discussed here). Despite global ivory ban, global ivory ban, tusks are carved into Jesuses, prayer beads, and amulets.

It's bad enough that poaching/ivory trade has actually led to civil wars across Africa and the funding of terorism on multiple fronts - more shared in Blood ivory: Is $10bn-a-year trade fuelling civil conflict in Africa? - News - www.theeastafrican.co.ke and Ivory Apocalypse - Elephants Without Borders

Tanzania's Blood Ivory: The Threat of Poaching - YouTube

Like blood diamonds, a conflict resource in Africa today is ivory. With such a high demand and the development of highly organised criminal syndicates with distribution networks across national boundaries, it is no wonder groups such as Uganda’s LRA are believed to be turning to ivory and Rhino horn to finance their terrorist activities

But to see ivory poaching used to justify religious expression as well is a big deal..



In an interview, the author of the piece, Bryan Christy, said it’s up to religious leaders to end this practice:
… “the leader of the Catholic Church have an extraordinary opportunity to make a difference to the survival of elephants. Few words to them: enough with the religious icons in ivory.”




Contraband that failed to get past Kenya’s law enforcement agencies (Brent Stirton – National​

And for more info on the issue, one can go online/consider investigating the following under their respective titles:




Nature was NOT meant to be subjected to MAN's dominion.......which in their minds equates to man having DOMINATION of nature and allowed to do whatever he desires. For myself, I cannot see that due to how the Lord seemed to have Adam/Eve in the garden caring for it-----as Genesis 2 makes clear
Genesis 2:7 10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin[d] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.[e] 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Ashur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
 
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dazed

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Environmental issues may not be exactly a question of religion or faith -

It's faith. Climate Change used to go by the name Global Warming. Earth experienced warmer/colder periods than we have now. The theory that Earth can't recover from the extreme heat caused by CO2. So, even after we died off, Earth will be gone. Conviniently forget that our Sun will go supernova and burn the Earth off anyway. Give or take a few billion years.

The thing is: none of this is a controversy. The verdict of the scientific community (i.e. people who deal with these matters professionally and have all the data at hand) is virtually unanimous. To deny it and pretend that it's still nothing more than some wishy-washy hypothesis is the rough equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and going "LALALA!!! I CANNOT HEAR YOU!!"

In 70's and even 80's, the scientific community agreed that another Ice Age is coming!!! We would be fighting Global Cooling if the tree huggers were better at marketing than they are now.
 
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morningstar2651

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It's faith. Climate Change used to go by the name Global Warming. Earth experienced warmer/colder periods than we have now. The theory that Earth can't recover from the extreme heat caused by CO2. So, even after we died off, Earth will be gone. Conviniently forget that our Sun will go supernova and burn the Earth off anyway. Give or take a few billion years.



In 70's and even 80's, the scientific community agreed that another Ice Age is coming!!! We would be fighting Global Cooling if the tree huggers were better at marketing than they are now.
Are tree-huggers really just much better at marketing today? Is that why the consensus of the scientific community is that global warming is a problem?
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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The vast majority of climate papers in the 1970s predicted warming.

For more debunked nonsense that climate change deniers keep on repeating like a chant, I'd recommend this link.

Clearly, it's not just "a bunch of Tree Huggers who hate Our Way of Life". Sorry, Ayn Rand.


With all of that out of the way, could we please steer the discussion towards more productive shores? Debating conspiracy theorists is such a tedious business, especially when it's so obvious they just can't face up to reducing their consumption rate.
 
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ViaCrucis

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If one's religious identity is intrinsically attached to a particular partisan political ideology and philosophy that is intrinsically attached to the prosperity of big business, then anything that might be critical of big business gets filtered down the pipeline as a direct attack on one's religious identity.

Because 'Merica.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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