Cliches

[Lessien]

No, this isn't a rant about how fantasy novels that use cliches somehow end up on the bestseller list, but if you want to hear that rant, just visit almost any thread that has the word "Eragon" or "Eldest" or "Inheritance Trilogy" in the title.

This is a rant about my inner editor. I hate cliches, and so I never want to use them. I also never want to steal any ideas (well, at least not obviously) from other sources. For example: You know how Paolini stole entire plot twists, characters, scenes, and settings from other bestselling fantasy epics? I don't want to do that. I mock it incessently, so how can I do the same thing Paolini does without being a hypocrite?

So what's the problem? Well, I've started working on this book that I like and hope to someday publish. (And if I don't publish it, then I at least want to let my friends and family read it.) The characters include a bitter, banished prince, the princess of his enemy nation (the last surviving member of her tribe), and the banished prince's evil brother. Just this morning, I realized that many of those elements are used in an anime show on Nickelodeon! One that I don't even watch! Even the setting is similar!

I really like this book that I'm working on, and I want to continue with it. But how can I when it seems like such a rip-off to me, the author? I'm contemplating a change of setting and a slight change of plot, but I don't know where to look for inspiration. Tariel, NeoScribe, and Jehane especially, do you have any advice? If it's advice that would make me cry, give it to me anyway.

 

[Tariel]

First of all...those of us who are writers by nature tend to compare whatever we see/read to what we write. Therefore, we tend to see a lot of similarities that seem glaringly obvious to us, but the reader will likely never notice. And off course there is the question that must be raised: if the reader notices, will the reader care? Unless you are clearly ripping off something as well known as Star Wars, the answer is usually no.

I believe I've seen said anime show (one watches much Nickelodeon while bablysitting) so if you either post or pm me a more detailed plan for your story I could probably tell you if you should be concerned or if you're just paranoid.

One way to counteract the feeling (at least in character development) is to find one VERY obvious way in which your character is different. If you can't find one, make one up and intergrate it into your character. For example (this is from my own story and another book I recently read) both Jynx and Tariel are unusually strong. Both are young, both enjoy tormenting the main character, both have a sharp tounge. They both worked for/helped the villian at some point. But while Jynx is now against the villian and is looking out for herself/helping the "good guys." Tariel sometimes regrets leaving and often wonders what would happen if she rejoined the enemy. Jynx is now good; Tariel is scarred with a twisted set of morals and considers herself being almost insufferably good if she refrains from killing somebody simply because that person got on her nerves. It really does make a difference.

 

[Lessien]

Makes sense. And with those characters that seem very similar to other characters, I've come up with ways that they're different, but it doesn't seem like enough to me. Maybe that's my inner editor speaking again. Man, I wish I could just beat her up and leave her on the side of the road until the first draft is done!

I'll PM you a more detailed plan of the story and the characters.

 

[NeoScribe]

Listen to the inner-editors advice but don't always act on it, even they are wrong sometimes. The show you are refering to is still reletivly new (when you live with eight younger ones you pick up a lot off Nickelodeon too, and I like the show.), so nothing you or the show use can really be a cliche. And just by having different genders from the show you've put in a whole new perspective. Unless you have an alternate personality who watches the show and subconsiosly tells you what to write it's impossible that everything you did was a copy.

You only stated your characters' current social positions, and that isn't even half of what make a person a person. Personality, physical traits, skills, abilities, thought patterns all play a critical role in shaping a story so even if the basic plot is the same everything between point A and point B will be dramaticly different. In other words, Even if both your story and the show begin exactly the same (which I doubt) and end exactly the same (which I also doubt) everything in the middle will be different and will shape the story in a differnt manner than that of the show.

And if it really must be done, so long as it doesn't upset the story to much, just change something about one of the chararcters to make him or her dramaticly different to avoid cliches. Perfect example: My own story was in trouble with the cliche of the "wise old wizard who never really does anything except give cryptic advice", so I thought really hard and somehow changed him into a young female elf with a super ego, but the point is the end result to the story was the same and I created a new original character out of it all. Hope I helped.

 

[Jehane]

Sweetheart, there is nothing new under the sun. ALL the stories have been told before. The trick is to tell the story in your own unique way - & I am sure you are more than capable of doing that. Tariel's advice is sound; find a difference & capatilise on it. Little quirks are what captivate your readers. I remember one book -can't remember the book, can't remember the character's name but I do remember the character. Boarding his ship he lugged a gianourmous suitcase on board; it popped open to reveal a lone toothbrush & absolutely nothing else! I knew everything I needed to know about that character from that. If you like & care about your characters that will show in your writing; it can't be faked & it makes all the difference because it null & voids the whole cliche thing. Besides, just because you are aware of similarities the rest of may not be & it will be new to us. I don't know any anime, so that should help.

If you want to share & feel you can I will have a look & comment but you've probably read what I said to Tariel & you may not want to.

P.S I hope you didn't mind me calling you sweetheart; I meant it as a I-care-about-how-you-feel not a pratronising way of talking to you.

 

[Tariel]

I'd have a hard time believing Lessien has any lower a tolerance for criticism than I do If nothing else we both learned from Paolini's mistakes

Whether she shares anything is up to her, off course, but I just wanted to clarify that if she doesn't it isn't from fear of criticism.
(sorry Lessien, if you didn't want me stepping in )

 

[Lessien]

Oh, no. I don't mind at all. If I'm going to criticise someone as brutally as I criticise Paolini, then I'd better be able to take what I dish out.

 

[Tariel]

Oh, no. I don't mind at all. If I'm going to criticise someone as brutally as I criticise Paolini, then I'd better be able to take what I dish out.

I assumed you would

 

[Jehane]

Glad we're all clear on that one.

 

[Lessien]

Thanks for all the advice, guys.

 

[Jehane]

You're welcome.

 

[NeoScribe]

'Welcome!

 

[Tariel]

Glad I could be of service to you.

 

[NeoScribe]

Ah, now I see why your so hyped on angsty princes.

 

[Tariel]

Ah, now I see why your so hyped on angsty princes.

yepp!

 

[God4Gives]

*heart breaks in two* You mentioned Eragon with a negative vibe T_T XD Anyways... I agree... but cliches are un-avoidable... really think about it..... there has been a million kazillion people on the earth... people have been writing sinse forever...... think you came up with something "original"? Most doubtfully.... Oh well...... All we can do is take a boring cliche and turn into the coolest cliche of the century. =)

 

[Tariel]

*heart breaks in two* You mentioned Eragon with a negative vibe T_T XD Anyways... I agree... but cliches are un-avoidable... really think about it..... there has been a million kazillion people on the earth... people have been writing sinse forever...... think you came up with something "original"? Most doubtfully.... Oh well...... All we can do is take a boring cliche and turn into the coolest cliche of the century. =)

I STRONGLY disagree.

(Especially since, even if it were true, Eragon would NOT be the coolest cliche of the century. The cliches are just one of many problems I have with Paolini's work.)

But I digress.

Cliches ARE avoidable. A cliche is an idea or expression that has been so overused that it no longer has any meaning, not an idea or expression that has been used before.

No two people will tell the same story the same way. Everybody has a different set of experiences, a different life, a different lense through which they view the world. The problem arises when the auther (A. doesn't think long enough about his story to develop it into a unique world (B. is just plain lazy and decided that if the plot worked once it will work again (C. writes in a vaccuum and thinks that the knight rescuing the princess from the tower is a wonderfully original idea.

If done correctly, the same story can be told again and again. Look at all the King Arthur tales, or Robin Hood (I'm reading a retelling of Robin Hood right now...and trust me it's one of the most non-cliched books I have ever read).

 

[Paladin Dave]

Holy CRAP!! Erin, is that YOU?! No, but seriously, my girlfriend started a book very similar to that, YEARS before that nickelodeon show came out!(thats assuming you refer to Avatar)

I wouldn't try keeping it going as is, personally. Just roll with the punches and either change things around, or take the good stuff from that story and move them into a new one, I'd say. But... since I do very little writing on my own... What do I know?

No, this isn't a rant about how fantasy novels that use cliches somehow end up on the bestseller list, but if you want to hear that rant, just visit almost any thread that has the word "Eragon" or "Eldest" or "Inheritance Trilogy" in the title.

This is a rant about my inner editor. I hate cliches, and so I never want to use them. I also never want to steal any ideas (well, at least not obviously) from other sources. For example: You know how Paolini stole entire plot twists, characters, scenes, and settings from other bestselling fantasy epics? I don't want to do that. I mock it incessently, so how can I do the same thing Paolini does without being a hypocrite?

So what's the problem? Well, I've started working on this book that I like and hope to someday publish. (And if I don't publish it, then I at least want to let my friends and family read it.) The characters include a bitter, banished prince, the princess of his enemy nation (the last surviving member of her tribe), and the banished prince's evil brother. Just this morning, I realized that many of those elements are used in an anime show on Nickelodeon! One that I don't even watch! Even the setting is similar!

I really like this book that I'm working on, and I want to continue with it. But how can I when it seems like such a rip-off to me, the author? I'm contemplating a change of setting and a slight change of plot, but I don't know where to look for inspiration. Tariel, NeoScribe, and Jehane especially, do you have any advice? If it's advice that would make me cry, give it to me anyway.

 

[Lessien]

I am referring to Avatar. And I'm changing things around a bit....still working on the setting, though. Ancient China and Japan were VERY interesting places, so it's kind of hard to find another culture to base mine off of (because if not, then I have the feeling that the setting would end up being more like medieval Europe, which I feel is overdone. Just the way I am.). But I am changing things around quite a bit.

 

[Tariel]

I am referring to Avatar. And I'm changing things around a bit....still working on the setting, though. Ancient China and Japan were VERY interesting places, so it's kind of hard to find another culture to base mine off of (because if not, then I have the feeling that the setting would end up being more like medieval Europe, which I feel is overdone. Just the way I am.). But I am changing things around quite a bit.

If what you told me was the extent of it...there really is no need to change much (if anything) because of that. Now if you have other reasons for changing....by all means do so. But don't let potential similarities drive you off (nobody ever claims that hot and angsty banished princes are cliched--no girl anyway )