Clarifying the Debate "basics" on Sabbath and the TEN Commandments

Leaf473 · Aug 7, 2021

BobRyan said:
Fine but you reject Post #11 when it comes to accepting God's Commandments written on the heart under the Jer 31:31-34 New Covenant. "adding more to be rejected" is kind of pointless -- is it not?

If the easy part is a problem - why keep going? What is the point?

I accept some of your interpretations of the scriptures given in post 11, I don't accept others.

Whether we keep going or not is up to you.

This was my first post on this thread

Leaf473 said:
Hi @BobRyan,

(I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this question, so if you don't want to answer or if you want to answer somewhere else, that's cool.)

A thing that often comes up when I talk to people who want to keep some portion of the Law is what laws other than the Ten commandments we are to keep today?

Like, if you start reading at the beginning of Genesis what is the first law that you come to that we are to keep today? Do you not reach any "today" laws until Exodus 20?

You replied that this was the right thread for that topic.

Since then I have clarified what I was asking in that post.

Here's the latest form:

Is the following a complete list of the laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy that you believe are active today? (Or the moral laws, or whatever other similar term you wish to use.)
####################
Genesis 9:4
Exodus 20:3-17
Leviticus 11
Leviticus 27:32
####################

It's up to you at this point. You can add to that list, or subtract from it, or just ignore it.

If you choose to ignore it, then Yes, we may as well say our goodbyes now.

Thank you for the rest of your post 267, as well as your posts 268, 269, and 270. I believe it will be much more efficient to deal with the objections you raise in those posts after you post your complete list, if you choose to do so.

Peace be with you.

Leaf473 · Aug 7, 2021

michael21 said:
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. Deut 30: 11-16

For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

Yes, I would say there is a difference between the Spirit of the law and the letter of the law. The former is generally living your life according to what is written in the law for that is how you want to live, but though you do this, you will not follow the law perfectly in your humanity. The letter of the law requires perfect obedience, something beyond man to do. Hence Moses speaks of the Spirit of the law and Paul the letter

Yes. But it turns out that there are those who believe that we are to keep the letter of some of the laws. Ask for a list of the letters of those laws, however, and not much progress is made.

This scripture came to mind
Galatians 4 "Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?"

I think a careful reading of the law, looking for which letters we are to keep, will lead a person to realize that such a task is futile.

An interpretation of the scriptures has a serious issue in it somewhere if it leads a person to say that there are laws God that wants us to keep, and yet that person can't say what those laws are.

michael21 · Aug 7, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Yes. But it turns out that there are those who believe that we are to keep the letter of some of the laws. Ask for a list of the letters of those laws, however, and not much progress is made.

This scripture came to mind
Galatians 4 "Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?"

I think a careful reading of the law, looking for which letters we are to keep, will lead a person to realize that such a task is futile.

An interpretation of the scriptures has a serious issue in it somewhere if it leads a person to say that there are laws God that wants us to keep, and yet that person can't say what those laws are.

For me, I trust that the law God placed in my heart and mind is the law I am asked to follow. I read many comments on websites such as these(not from you, I am not referring to you in the least) as to how we must obey the law/commandments if we want to enter heaven, but I know, without a shadow of a doubt, the people making those comments do not have the conviction of the law that I have from within. The most reliable conviction of what believers should follow, comes from within, for that is where the law now is for the born again believer. Thank you for your post. God bless

BobRyan · Aug 7, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Hi Bob,

A few logistical issues with your post 265 above:

It contains reposts of things I had just responded to. Are you aware that you are doing this? Are you doing it on purpose?

It is a mistake on my part -- I failed to notice in the "reply" that the screen name was for me and not you before I hit save.

Leaf473 said:
This quote:
"I believe we were talking about the second commandment. Would you like to switch to the sixth?"
is attributed to you, when in fact it is a quote of me.

Good catch. I will fix that.. thanks!

BobRyan · Aug 7, 2021

Leaf473 said:
It makes a difference if one asserts that using “Lord God Almighty” improperly in a prayer is breaking the letter of the second commandment.

as I already stated - the spirit of the Law is far more extensive than the letter and always includes the letter. (Everything in B is included in A and A has more in it than just B).

Leaf473 said:
Which leads us to the question of
Do you have a list of the laws of which you feel we are to keep the letter today?

Well... there is the Ten Commandments which you already agree are written on heart under the Jer 31:31-34 New Covenant - and yet object to.

Once you get that straightened out - let me know how you did it and maybe it will make sense to then "add more" to your list.

BobRyan · Aug 7, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Yes. But it turns out that there are those who believe that we are to keep the letter of some of the laws. Ask for a list of the letters of those laws, however, and not much progress is made. .

On the contrary you get "the Ten" as included in that list - and you have already objected to them. Did you forget to include that fact in your response?

BobRyan · Aug 7, 2021

michael21 said:
For me, I trust that the law God placed in my heart and mind is the law I am asked to follow.

Jer 31:31-34 - the New Covenant has the "Law of God" known to Jeremiah and his readers to include the TEN - written on heart and mind. That Law includes the set of TEN having "honor your father and mother as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

BobRyan said:
Jer 31:31-34 says God writes His Law on the heart and mind under the one and only "New Covenant" - quoted verbatim in the New Testament in Heb 8:6-12

And all Bible scholars admit that God's Commandments - His Ten Commandments are included in the Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers.

Paul says this is the Unit of Law - still binding on the saints that as "honor your father and mother as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

.

We see this point made on page 1 of this thread.

michael21 · Aug 7, 2021

BobRyan said:
Jer 31:31-34 - the New Covenant has the "Law of God" known to Jeremiah and his readers to include the TEN - written on heart and mind. That Law includes the set of TEN having "honor your father and mother as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

We see this point made on page 1 of this thread.

Yes I read your previous response to the other person concerning the letter of which law believers must keep. You wrote the ten commandments. As you believe then the letter of these commands must be obeyed to inherit eternal life, I can only presume you do not understand the depth of what that demands. Paul did of course, hence he said the letter of those commands kills. Possibly you believe your christianity is further advanced than Paul's?

michael21 · Aug 7, 2021

Concerning consciousness of sin of the law placed in believers most inward parts.

The bible does not state ‘’you might’’ be conscious of sin through the law, it states ‘’Through the law we become conscious of sin. Romans3:20

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Note the above, scripture tells us those who do not know the written law can show the requirements of that law are written on their hearts. It does not say, part of the requirements, but the requirements, all of it! Bible details matter.

Of course, I suspect the only reason it is being called into question as to whether the law within always brings consciousness of sin is simply to defend denominational belief from errancy concerning the new covenant. For it is obvious that if a law is in a believer instructing them to follow a Saturday Sabbath and they have no consciousness of sin at not following that they could not be a christian

So the validity of a full proof biblical covenant must be called into question/sacrificed on the altar of defending denominational belief

Which leaves people insisting you must obey the ten commandments if you want to enter Heaven. But this is not necessarily true as the law within you may not bring a consciousness of sin concerning much of that law. So you may well be off the hook.

I have confidence in God, that he made a perfect, not imperfect covenant. He would not allow anyone a licence to sin concerning it

Leaf473 · Aug 7, 2021

BobRyan said:
as I already stated - the spirit of the Law is far more extensive than the letter and always includes the letter. (Everything in B is included in A and A has more in it than just B).

Well... there is the Ten Commandments which you already agree are written on heart under the Jer 31:31-34 New Covenant - and yet object to.

Once you get that straightened out - let me know how you did it and maybe it will make sense to then "add more" to your list.

I believe you misunderstood what I wrote previously.

But more importantly, why do you need me to straighten something out before you can post your list?

If you ask, What is the point? My answer is that it is something that I am asking for. If you wish to say No, that's okay, just say it.

Leaf473 · Aug 7, 2021

BobRyan said:
On the contrary you get "the Ten" as included in that list - and you have already objected to them. Did you forget to include that fact in your response?

Again, I believe you misunderstood what I wrote previously.

But yes, regarding "not much progress", I think that's accurate. It's certainly been my experience so far, not just here but on another Christian forum as well... many people in total.

The ten commandments are often given first, yes. Then often the first and second greatest commandments. After that the "bog" begins to thicken, progress slows.

Ask for more details, citations for particular laws other than those 12, and the "bog" usually hardens, progress ends.

Peace be with you, my man!

michael21 · Aug 7, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Again, I believe you misunderstood what I wrote previously.

But yes, regarding "not much progress", I think that's accurate. It's certainly been my experience so far, not just here but on another Christian forum as well... many people in total.

The ten commandments are often given first, yes. Then often the first and second greatest commandments. After that the "bog" begins to thicken, progress slows.

Ask for more details, citations for particular laws other than those 12, and the "bog" usually hardens, progress ends.

Peace be with you, my man!

I dont know if this is anyway helpful. But in Acts ch15 Paul and Barnabas specifically met with the church leaders in Jerusalem to decide which of the Mosaic laws Gentile believers be asked to follow:
It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. verses 19&20

Many believe three of them were added to appease Pharisees who had converted to christianity

michael21 · Aug 8, 2021

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Again, in the above we see that if you do not have the written law you can still fulfill the requirements of it if the law is in your heart. So we must ask the question. If you only have the law in your heart, and you have never read of the written law, would you be convicted then to set aside Saturday as a particular sabbath day? I am sure the answer to that is obvious, however, if you can deny the law constantly makes you conscious of sin, I'm confident some answer can be found to negate the obvious

Leaf473 · Aug 8, 2021

michael21 said:
I dont know if this is anyway helpful. But in Acts ch15 Paul and Barnabas specifically met with the church leaders in Jerusalem to decide which of the Mosaic laws Gentile believers be asked to follow:
It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. verses 19&20

Many believe three of them were added to appease Pharisees who had converted to christianity

I think that's helpful. The apostles and elders basically meet to settle the question of the gentiles and the law.

So it seems like that should settle it.

But some versions of "law keepers" say that the four rules are just a starting place for gentiles, they should go on to keep the rest of the laws as they learn about them.

Other versions of "law keepers" say, I think, that it's just these four rules out of the law of Moses that is to be kept, but the law of God is something different. And the law of God is The ten commandments plus some others, but I haven't been able to get a clear answer on what others so far.

Leaf473 · Aug 8, 2021

michael21 said:
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Again, in the above we see that if you do not have the written law you can still fulfill the requirements of it if the law is in your heart. So we must ask the question. If you only have the law in your heart, and you have never read of the written law, would you be convicted then to set aside Saturday as a particular sabbath day? I am sure the answer to that is obvious, however, if you can deny the law constantly makes you conscious of sin, I'm confident some answer can be found to negate the obvious

As far as I know, there is no record of godly people in cultures that haven't been exposed to Judaism or Christianity keeping the seventh day as a holy day.

It would be cool if there were. Then we could see if they celebrate the Sabbath from sundown to sundown where they live or sundown to sundown around the Tigris and Euphrates where the garden of Eden was.

But again, I haven't heard of this happening. If someone has, I would like to hear the details!

michael21 · Aug 8, 2021

Leaf473 said:
I think that's helpful. The apostles and elders basically meet to settle the question of the gentiles and the law.

So it seems like that should settle it.

But some versions of "law keepers" say that the four rules are just a starting place for gentiles, they should go on to keep the rest of the laws as they learn about them.

Other versions of "law keepers" say, I think, that it's just these four rules out of the law of Moses that is to be kept, but the law of God is something different. And the law of God is The ten commandments plus some others, but I haven't been able to get a clear answer on what others so far.

SDA believe the dietry laws are still in place for believers. However, that presents an alarming problem according to scripture. For if that were true, the leaders of the christian church in Jerusalem gave gentile converts a licence to sin in Acts ch15, this is unquestionable. Some mention the fact the leaders didn't want to make life too difficult for the gentile believers, however, God's laws are not arbitary, you cannot pick and choose which ones you follow and which ones you do not. Also, years later, in Acts ch21:25 the leaders of the church confirm to Paul the gentiles are not being asked to follow more than the four laws given in Acts ch15. Therefore, if the dietry laws must still be obeyed, it is an indisputable fact the leaders of the christian church, many of whom had been Christ's disciples gave gentile converts a licence to sin for the whole of their lives.
But never underestimate, on a website such as this, an attempt to overturn what scripture plainly states

michael21 · Aug 8, 2021

Leaf473 said:
As far as I know, there is no record of godly people in cultures that haven't been exposed to Judaism or Christianity keeping the seventh day as a holy day.

It would be cool if there were. Then we could see if they celebrate the Sabbath from sundown to sundown where they live or sundown to sundown around the Tigris and Euphrates where the garden of Eden was.

But again, I haven't heard of this happening. If someone has, I would like to hear the details!

I must admit, I do not look into other cultures so couldn't help you with that I'm afraid.

Leaf473 · Aug 8, 2021

@BobRyan

Say Bob, imo here's another reason to talk about the law even with people that you don't agree with.

Deuteronomy 6:6These words, which I command you this day, shall be on your heart; 7and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up. 8You shall bind them for a sign on your hand, and they shall be for symbols between your eyes. 9You shall write them on the door posts of your house, and on your gates.

Talk about them when you're on the road and post them on the forums. Write them on your front door and on the Internet.

But I don't want to push you on this. If you don't want to talk anymore, that's fine, and peace be with you!

Bob S · Aug 8, 2021

Leaf473 said:
I think that's helpful. The apostles and elders basically meet to settle the question of the gentiles and the law.

So it seems like that should settle it.

But some versions of "law keepers" say that the four rules are just a starting place for gentiles, they should go on to keep the rest of the laws as they learn about them.

Other versions of "law keepers" say, I think, that it's just these four rules out of the law of Moses that is to be kept, but the law of God is something different. And the law of God is The ten commandments plus some others, but I haven't been able to get a clear answer on what others so far.

Thou shalt not harm to your wife would be an example of hundreds of ways we can do harm to our fellow man. Everything that deals with morality we would deem as moral laws. Any laws that deal with old covenant feast days new moon celebrations and Sabbath would classify as rituals or ceremonies. They were laws that ended at Calvary.

Leaf473 · Aug 9, 2021

michael21 said:
SDA believe the dietry laws are still in place for believers. However, that presents an alarming problem according to scripture. For if that were true, the leaders of the christian church in Jerusalem gave gentile converts a licence to sin in Acts ch15, this is unquestionable. Some mention the fact the leaders didn't want to make life too difficult for the gentile believers, however, God's laws are not arbitary, you cannot pick and choose which ones you follow and which ones you do not. Also, years later, in Acts ch21:25 the leaders of the church confirm to Paul the gentiles are not being asked to follow more than the four laws given in Acts ch15. Therefore, if the dietry laws must still be obeyed, it is an indisputable fact the leaders of the christian church, many of whom had been Christ's disciples gave gentile converts a licence to sin for the whole of their lives.
But never underestimate, on a website such as this, an attempt to overturn what scripture plainly states

This is how it looks to me, too.

michael21 said:
God's laws are not arbitary, you cannot pick and choose which ones you follow and which ones you do not.

I agree. But if someone does see it differently, it's reasonable to ask them what laws they follow, imo.

But in my experience, ask for specific laws about diet and tithing, and one gets more vague answers.

Ask about Numbers 15:38 (fringes on clothes) and apparently my SDA brothers and sisters keep the principle of that commandment, but not the letter.

Which is fine with me, actually. The law has lots of great principles. But watch out for the letters, that's the ministry of death.

Clarifying the Debate "basics" on Sabbath and the TEN Commandments

Do you agree with the 3 points listed in the OP?

I agree with point 1

I agree with point 2

I agree with point 3

I don't agree with any of the points

I don't agree with point 1

I don't agree with point 2

I don't agree with point 3

I don't know yet

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