Circumcision

ChetSinger · Apr 25, 2020

As I'm a Gentile, Acts 15 released me from circumcision. Paul went even further in Galatians, saying that it had no value at all.

Hark, if your heart says that circumcision important to you, that's fine with me because I believe you should follow your heart. But please don't put a burden on your brothers that Paul specifically removed.

Btw, I think it will add weight to your argument if you list the Christian denominations that require circumcision for membership. Otherwise you're a voice of one.

Billy UK · Apr 25, 2020

HARK! said:
Not required for what?

It is not required for a New Covenant following Christian. Which Covenant are you claiming to be following ?

Allen of the Cross · Apr 25, 2020

I have a question for you, and I do not intended to sound snarky, nor do I claim to be intelligent. This is a legitimate question, and not a trick question:

Since you say, "be circumcised to keep the law," do you admonish us to follow the entire Torah? Does that mean you, yourself, thus follow the whole law? Would you stone a rebellious child (Deuteronomy 21:18-21,) would you put someone to death for blaspheming God (Leviticus 24:16,) do you wear garments with mixed fabrics (Deuteronomy 22:11)?

Do you think these laws are intended to be followed by followers of the Christ today? I am sincerely curious as to your position regarding the observance of the Law.

Lost4words · Apr 25, 2020

ChetSinger said:
As I'm a Gentile, Acts 15 released me from circumcision. Paul went even further in Galatians, saying that it had no value at all.

Hark, if your heart says that circumcision important to you, that's fine with me because I believe you should follow your heart. But please don't put a burden on your brothers that Paul specifically removed.

Btw, I think it will add weight to your argument if you list the Christian denominations that require circumcision for membership. Otherwise you're a voice of one.

Agree

HARK! · Apr 25, 2020

Lost4words said:
You are wrong.....The Jewish nation. The old Covenant Israel....Jews....

God bless you my friend

Sorry my friend. The lost tribes were not the Jews. They would have been from the Northern Kingdom, or Israel. This goes way back; but clearly he was writing to the believers in Yahshua, King of Israel. This is the true Israel.

The author identifies himself as "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ" who is writing to "the twelve tribes scattered abroad".

Epistle of James - Wikipedia

Der Alte · Apr 25, 2020

HARK! said:
LOL! Strong didn't get it wrong 100% of the time; and Strong isn't the only source I use. Your logic is in error.

A broken clock is right twice a day but I'm not going to rely on it for the correct time.
In my Bible program, ESword, one of my Bible modules shows Strong's numbers beside each word. I hover over the number and it shows the Hebrew or Greek word. That is as far as I go with Strong's. The correct definition I get from reliable sources.
Here is the first full word in BDB

†[אֵב S3, 4 TWOT1a, 2554 GK4] n. [m.] freshness, fresh green (Lag207 Inf. ibb; thence concr., cf. Arabic أَبٌّ (ʾabbun) herbage, pasture; above stem & meaning better than √אנב (spring) cf. Aramaic אִנְבֵּהּ (q.v.) Dl65, 114) עֿדֶנּוּ בְאִבּוֹ while yet in its freshness (i.e. אָחוּ, reed) Jb 8:12; concr., pl. green shoots בְּאִבֵּי הַנַּחַל Ct 6:11 (|| הֲפָֽרְחָה הַגֶּפֶן הֵנֵצוּ הָֽרִמֹּנִים׃).
Brown, F., Driver, S. R., & Briggs, C. A. (1977). Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (p. 1). Oxford: Clarendon Press.

HARK! · Apr 25, 2020

Allen Clark said:
I have a question for you, and I do not intended to sound snarky, nor do I claim to be intelligent. This is a legitimate question, and not a trick question:

Hi Allen, Thank you for your sincere inquiry; and...

WELCOME TO CF!

Allen Clark said:
Since you say, "be circumcised to keep the law," do you admonish us to follow the entire Torah?

Admonish wouldn't be the right word, strongly encourage, would be more appropriate.

Allen Clark said:
Does that mean you, yourself, thus follow the whole law?

I pray continually for YHWH to give me the strength to do his will. How can he refuse me? he calls me however to pray to him continuously.

Allen Clark said:
Would you stone a rebellious child (Deuteronomy 21:18-21,) would you put someone to death for blaspheming God (Leviticus 24:16,)

These are the laws of the land. Israel is not in the land. We are in exile. You don't go into a foreign land, where you don't have jurisdiction, and exercise authority of your homeland.

Allen Clark said:
do you wear garments with mixed fabrics (Deuteronomy 22:11)?

No. I thought that these were sincere questions. Do you; or are you attempting to remove the speck from my eye?

Allen Clark said:
Do you think these laws are intended to be followed by followers of the Christ today? I am sincerely curious as to your position regarding the observance of the Law.

You said followers of Messiah. What does this mean to you?

Allen of the Cross · Apr 25, 2020

Thank you for the welcome, I appreciate it. And I knew it would sound snarky, that's why I said, i intend not to be snarky. I was just curious as to what degree you followed the Law. I am not judging you for what you wear.

I once attempted to follow the Law to the letter. It was very difficult. Nowadays, I try to focus more, instead of being ultra-legalistic in my approach, to rather focus on what Christ said was the two most important Laws: to love God with my entire being, and to love my neighbor as myself. The Spirit has been producing fruits in my life plentifully. It has been wonderful.

Well, by followers of Christ, i merely mean those who believe in Christ, and trust in Him for salvation from sin.

My next question for you then is this: do you believe we are saved by following the Law? Or rather, if you say "no," do you believe following the Law is a necessary component to salvation?

Ivan Hlavanda · Apr 25, 2020

HARK! said:
The Jerusalem Council

There are two sides to this debate. I want to say right out of the gate, that you can't come back, 2000 years later, and add a third side to this debate.

The first group are non believers. they follow the traditions of men, the Talmud. They don't even keep the Torah.

(CLV) Ac 15:1
And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved."

Their argument is that you cannot be saved unless you show the outward sign. This is not what Torah teaches. Was Abraham saved before or after he showed the sign?

Abraham wasn't circumcised until he was 99.

(CLV) Gn 17:24
Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he had the flesh of his foreskin circumcised.

Are disciples of Yahshua saved before or after Baptism?

Here is the other side of the Argument. These men are believers:

(CLV) Ac 15:5
Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses.

This group argues that you must be circumcised to keep the law.

These are the only two arguments that are being made.

One is that you must be circumcised to keep the law of Moses. This is the law that Yahshua preached throughout his ministry unto death; as he called us to follow his example.

The other is that you must be circumcised to be saved. These are the only two sides to this debate.

You can't come in 2000 years later and add your own argument.

Here is the ruling:

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.

This is of the bare minimum that newcomers must respect to even share table fellowship with believers.

Why? (and this part seems to be ignored by those who have contempt for the law that Yahshua preached throughout is ministry unto death):

(CLV) Ac 15:21
For (because) Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues."

Now shortly after Paul left this meeting; he circumcised Timothy himself.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Messiah followed the Torah, not the Talmud.

Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)

Abraham was made righteous in God's eyes because Abraham believed God when God told him that despite his old age God will make him a father of a large nation. Genesis 13:16 "And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, [then] shall thy seed also be numbered." - this was the moment that made Abraham righteous, because he believed what God told him no matter how impossible it seemed. Only when you fully trust God and everything God done and said you become righteous. Same as Jesus, you have to believe everything the bible said about the cross and what it means.

Many people falsely believe that, just because Abraham got circumcised he was made righteous. NO NO and NO you cannot become righteous of something you do in this case the circumcision. The circumcision is just a symbol of being sealed in the righteousness of God, however, circumcision alone doesn't seal you in God;s righteousness, only a complete obedience and trust does that. then the circumcision has a meaning.

Baptising by the water is the same, it does nothing if you don't fully give your self to Jesus and obey him. If you do however, then baptising by water has a meaning, it's a symbol that you killed your old and gave yourself to Jesus. Baptising by spirit is different, that means you have been reborn, all your sins are forgiven, and you are forever a child of God. Nothing can ever break the seal of the spirit.

So why did Jesus change this? For the same reason he healed on saturday and told the lame to stand up and carry his bed. Jesus is God. He is the author of Moses law he is the one who has the authority to change this law. Btw Moses's law was largely misunderstood by the Israelites, who lived the law by the letter and not by the spirit. Circumcision was an old covenant, Jesus gave us a new one.

If you don't believe that Jesus is a Messiah and He and Father are one, then you have big problem.

HARK! · Apr 25, 2020

Der Alter said:
ESword, one of my Bible modules shows Strong's numbers beside each word. I hover over the number and it shows the Hebrew or Greek word. That is as far as I go with Strong's.

So you do use Strong numbers? Nuff said.

Lost4words · Apr 25, 2020

HARK! said:
Sorry my friend. The lost tribes were not the Jews. They would have been from the Northern Kingdom, or Israel. This goes way back; but clearly he was writing to the believers in Yahshua, King of Israel. This is the true Israel.

The author identifies himself as "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ" who is writing to "the twelve tribes scattered abroad".

Epistle of James - Wikipedia

Whichever way you put it, circumcision is not needed today. It is only of interest to the Jews. Not Christians.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 25, 2020

I don't need to be circumcised to be justified in God's eyes. Or to make myself more pleasing to him or to make myself more moral.

HARK! · Apr 25, 2020

Allen Clark said:
to love God with my entire being

This is the love of YHWH:

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,

(CLV) Jn 14:15
If you should be loving Me, you will be keeping My precepts.

From Decalogue
(CLV) Ex 20:6
yet showing benignity to thousands, to those loving Me and observing My instructions.

Allen Clark said:
My next question for you then is this: do you believe we are saved by following the Law?

No.

Allen Clark said:
Or rather, if you say "no," do you believe following the Law is a necessary component to salvation?

No; but faith is. Obedience is a fruit of faith. Let's suppose you were leading someone on a mountain trail; and you told them, "don't go that way; it's treacherous; you'll die." They tell you they believe you; but they go that way anyway; and you find their broken body at the foot of the mountain; did they believe you? Did they follow you? I'm not talking about stumbling on a stone behind you. I'm talking about someone who takes their own path.

YHWH's word is a light unto our path.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life,

eleos1954 · Apr 25, 2020

HARK! said:
The Jerusalem Council

There are two sides to this debate. I want to say right out of the gate, that you can't come back, 2000 years later, and add a third side to this debate.

The first group are non believers. they follow the traditions of men, the Talmud. They don't even keep the Torah.

(CLV) Ac 15:1
And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved."

Their argument is that you cannot be saved unless you show the outward sign. This is not what Torah teaches. Was Abraham saved before or after he showed the sign?

Abraham wasn't circumcised until he was 99.

(CLV) Gn 17:24
Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he had the flesh of his foreskin circumcised.

Are disciples of Yahshua saved before or after Baptism?

Here is the other side of the Argument. These men are believers:

(CLV) Ac 15:5
Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses.

This group argues that you must be circumcised to keep the law.

These are the only two arguments that are being made.

One is that you must be circumcised to keep the law of Moses. This is the law that Yahshua preached throughout his ministry unto death; as he called us to follow his example.

The other is that you must be circumcised to be saved. These are the only two sides to this debate.

You can't come in 2000 years later and add your own argument.

Here is the ruling:

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.

This is of the bare minimum that newcomers must respect to even share table fellowship with believers.

Why? (and this part seems to be ignored by those who have contempt for the law that Yahshua preached throughout is ministry unto death):

(CLV) Ac 15:21
For (because) Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues."

Now shortly after Paul left this meeting; he circumcised Timothy himself.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Messiah followed the Torah, not the Talmud.

Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)

Romans 2:25-29

For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Galatians 5:6

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Philippians 3:3

For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—

Galatians 6:15

For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

1 Corinthians 7:19

For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

Romans 3:30

since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Romans 4:11

He (Abraham) received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,

Colossians 3:11

Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.

The bottom line is this ...

Romans 3:30

Since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Physical circumcision is not required .... it's a choice .... all are justified by/through FAITH.

Circumcision has to do with justification ... and justification is through Christ. That is why there is neither greek or jew. Christ fulfilled everything law-wise ... we go through Jesus .... when we are in Him ... we strive to keep the moral law (the 10) and do strive to do so out of love and for no other reasons .... and Jesus helps us to strive to overcome our sins if we abide in Him. He writes His law in our hearts and helps us to circumcise our hearts ... a spiritual circumcision in the heart.

Justification:

Each one of us have broken God’s Law. This is sin. The wages of sin is (eternal) death (cease to exist forever). This price is more than we can ever repay–it is impossible. Because of God the father’s unconditional love for the us, he gave his only begotten Son Jesus to pay for our debt of eternal death on the cross. This one time event was done by Jesus. Only Jesus is worthy to pay the price for each one of us because he never sinned. He has not broken God’s Law. Jesus (in the form of a man) died a physical death, giving His life willingly and was raised back to life; thus conquering eternal death.

HARK! · Apr 25, 2020

Lost4words said:
Whichever way you put it, circumcision is not needed today. It is only of interest to the Jews. Not Christians.

Why did Paul circumcise Timothy?

Der Alte · Apr 25, 2020

HARK! said:
So you do use Strong numbers? Nuff said.

Unlike you, NOT for definitions as I showed you from BDB.

Zao is life · Apr 25, 2020

HARK! said:
James settled this at the Council of Jerusalem. Again the debate was about circumcision for salvation, VS, circumcision to keep the law. These were the opposing arguments at the debate. The winner was circumcision to keep the law. Then James handed down a decree of obedience to the Torah in his closing arguments. Shortly thereafter Paul circumcises Timothy.

Paul circumcised Timothy because of the attitudes towards circumcision of people like you who existed in his day. He probably figured it was safer for his and Timothy's life if he did so.

Acts 16:1-3 "And he came to Derbe and Lystra. And behold, a certain disciple named Timothy was there, the son of a woman who was a Jewess and who believed. But his father was a Greek. He was well reported of by the brothers at Lystra and Iconium.

Paul wanted him to go with him, and taking him he circumcised him, because of the Jews who were in those places; for they all knew that his father was a Greek."

So if circumcision is forever and both the cut above the rest rots and the rest rots in the grave at a later stage, in the resurrection does the rest get resurrected with the cut above the rest, or doesn't it matter because

Gal 6:15 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation."

What does "a new creation" mean to you?

HARK! · Apr 25, 2020

Der Alter said:
Unlike you, NOT for definitions as I showed you from BDB.

Waffling again?

HARK! · Apr 25, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Paul circumcised Timothy because of people like you who existed in his day. He probably figured it was safer for his and Timothy's life if he did so,

So you're accusing Paul of caving in hypocrisy, and chopping off another man's flesh in the process?

I don't buy it. Lashon hara!

Lost4words · Apr 25, 2020

HARK! said:
Why did Paul circumcise Timothy?

1 Corinthians 9:20-23
20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law—though not being myself under the law—that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law—not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ—that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

Circumcision

Why must we be circumcised?

To be saved.

To keep the law.

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