Circumcision

Open Heart said:

Is having your ears pierced mutilation? Is having a boob job mutilation? How about a face lift? The reason these things are not mutilation is that they don't destroy any bodily function. Neither does circumcision. Having your arm broken or female genital mutilation both destroy bodily functions.

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If one chooses to have ears pierced, have a boob job, or a face lift, then it's totally OK.

If someone forces someone to have their ears pierced, to have a boob job, or to have a facelift, it is NOT OK.

Consent matters. This is why routine infant circumcision is wrong. It's also why adults choosing to be circumcised is totally OK.

Circumcision of the heart is more important.

Desk trauma said:

Having a pricing or cosmetic surgery does not involve removing a healthy body part from a non-consenting person.

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Removing body parts: tummy tuck, face lift, nose job, circumcision
Non-consenting person: infant ear piercing, circumcision

KitKatMatt said:

If someone forces someone to have their ears pierced, to have a boob job, or to have a facelift, it is NOT OK.

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So you think Mexicans are butchers for piercing their infant girl's ears?

Open Heart said:

So you think Mexicans are butchers for piercing their infant girl's ears?

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I think it should be illegal to pierce the ears of someone who doesn't consent to ears being pierced. I think people who do it are wrong, yes. I'm serious about that, I mentioned a while back in the thread that this happened to me and I'm still upset about it. My ears were pierced against my will, and now I have to deal with pushing gunk out of my ear lobes every day and cleaning the holes with alcohol to keep them from getting infected because they never properly closed. I never asked for this, this was wrong of my mother to do. My sister, on the other hand, asked for her ears to be pierced and she was super happy with it.

There are ways for your child to enjoy wearing earrings without piercing their ears against their will. Clip on earrings exist.

Most countries and religions that circumcise both sexes do it for alike reasons. Anti-masturbation (hows that working out for ya? men and women can still touch)
cleanliness ( because there is no water on earth to clean with)
prevents infections and stds (because no one has heard of cranberries and antibiotics, sucks for you because you have just as much of a chance getting infected with or without it)
Also, if youre going to do it for religious reasons, please look back at the old manuscripts and you will find that the procedures done long ago did not remove the entire foreskin (because God did make it for a purpose, he didnt create it and then say oh snap, bad idea, yeah lets cut THAT off) instead it was a prick of the foreskin. The foreskin plays a huge purpose, removing it removes its function so yes it is mutilation.
The best way to find out its function? have sex with an intact man (intact is correct, not uncircumcised, you cant un circumcise someone) and then a circumcised man. Two completely different experiences.
An intact penis and a circumcised penis look the exact same erect. The only difference is with an intact man it doesnt feel like a broom handle.
Any religion that requires ripping and cutting of foreskin on an infant and finished with having his privates sucked by an old man to clean off the blood is absurd.
Common sense people. Its not that hard.
America didnt start circumcising until the stupid kellogg man, it didnt become illegal to circumcise until 1996 and it doesnt specify gender soooooooooo. why do women get to be protected but not innocent boys? unless there is a medical emergency at birth to have it removed then it is not medically necessary and then is cosmetic. Why do you think most insurance companies have stopped covering it?
Removing the foreskin because there might be a problem one day makes just as much sense as removing an appendix at birth because did you know you could die from your appendix?? DIE! but i dont see anyone removing it from babies once they are born. America is the most stupid group of humans. Slowly we are deciding to use our brains and learn for ourselves instead of expecting other people to learn and then just tell us what to do.


....his cereal is gross anyways....

E-LO said:

Most countries and religions that circumcise both sexes do it for alike reasons. Anti-masturbation (hows that working out for ya? men and women can still touch)

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"Female circumcision" is a gross misnomer. Technically it is called clitorectomy - or the removal of the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. IMO one of the most ungodly and grotesque practices imaginable. To "circumcise" means literally to "cut around' as in a circle.

Yeah - Drs Kellogg and Graham had their moments. At least we got some good breakfast food out of it.

Open Heart said:

Removing body parts: tummy tuck, face lift, nose job, circumcision
Non-consenting person: infant ear piercing, circumcision

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That's a mostly accurate categorization.

Other then mutilation of baby male genitalia what other irreversible cosmetic surgery are you ok with being performed without consent?

I remember reading that anthropologists and/or others have observed that people who practice what people in this thread are calling female genital mutilation do not see it as mutilation. The "mutilation" part is the ethnocentric view of Westerners, they say.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

I no longer support circumcision of infants. I think you should let the child grow and decide for their self.

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I agree. People who are in favor of it will argue that there are health benefits, but those seem to be inconclusive, and there are also risks. I doubt anyone would still do it in first world countries if it weren't for the religious precedent.

E-LO said:

Most countries and religions that circumcise both sexes do it for alike reasons. Anti-masturbation (hows that working out for ya? men and women can still touch)

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I don't know of a single circumcised man that doesn't still touch. I don't think its possible for a woman with FGM to do so.

Desk trauma said:

That's a mostly accurate categorization.

Other then mutilation of baby male genitalia what other irreversible cosmetic surgery are you ok with being performed without consent?

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My Mexican neighbors routinely pierce their infant daughters ears. I have no problem that.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

I no longer support circumcision of infants. I think you should let the child grow and decide for their self.

The foreskin serves many good purposes and what problems it can bring can easily be solved by good hygiene. Considering that a major reason why circumcision is so popular in the USA is because people wanted to reduce masturbation in children that's another reason I don't like circumcision.

What do you guys think?

Is it still relevant to Christian living?

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Good question. I'm open minded. I know a lot of people say it should be done, but the Bible says it's no longer necessary. If left up to me I would say no circumcision simply because I'm a woman and can't answer for guys which way is best. I read somewhere that it's better for guys to keep their foreskin. So I would not circumcise my son if left up to me. But I would also let the father decide because being a man he would know if circumcision is best or not. To me it's like how it's better for the mom to tell the daughter the best sanitary napkins to use for her period or the best bra etc. A guy wouldn't know that. So being a woman I would let the father determine which way he thinks is best. But if left up to me I would leave him uncircumcised. I don't believe in unnecessary cutting or surgeries. God made men have foreskin in the first place for a reason.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

I no longer support circumcision of infants. I think you should let the child grow and decide for their self.

The foreskin serves many good purposes and what problems it can bring can easily be solved by good hygiene. Considering that a major reason why circumcision is so popular in the USA is because people wanted to reduce masturbation in children that's another reason I don't like circumcision.

What do you guys think?

Is it still relevant to Christian living?

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Ever talked with a 13 year old who had to be, because of medical related health issues? I have they would never agree with you at all.

Cearbhall said:

If there is no medical justification for the irreversible removal of this genital part that does indeed increase sensation, then it's an easy comparison.

And there are milder forms of FGM (in the sense that they're reversible), such as just sewing up the vagina so that only menstrual blood can get through. But we still don't allow it in the US.

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May I suggest you talk to a Urologist, there is a good reason for such as a infant.

farout said:

May I suggest you talk to a Urologist, there is a good reason for such as a infant.

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Not really interested in seeking one out. I don't have kids. What's the reason?

Cearbhall said:

I know very little about it. I only found out what it is because of the Internet a few years ago. How common is it in the US? It is the norm? Based on the bit that I've read, it seems unnecessary.

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The vast majority of men are circumcised. It is far better to have this done as infant than as a young boy and most assuredly as a grown man. Ask most urologists the do see heath benefits and see adults with issues. A unclean male sets himself of problems.

No longer do we circumcise for religious reasons, but God always has a reason that we should do things, and we are always better to follow his suggestions, Especially the 10 suggestions in Exodus 20.

Open Heart said:

So you are ready to protest the Mexican tradition of piercing the infant ears of their girls?

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I would not protest it but I would not pierce my infant son or daughter's ears either. I would let them choose when they are old enough to understand it.

KitKatMatt said:

I want to come out here and say I'm also against this. I'm against altering a child's body for non-medical reasons.

Most girls I know, including myself, had their ears pierced as infants or toddlers.

I never wanted my ears pierced. I haven't worn earrings since I was around five (family wanted me to wear them but let me stop when they realized I didn't like it), and my holes never healed right and will get infected if I don't clean them out every day. The only way to fix them is to get them pierced again and hope the holes heal right, which I don't want to experience again.

My sister and my best friend both didn't have their ears pierced as babies, and got them pierced when they were older because they wanted it. They're very happy with their decisions.

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I didn't get my ears pierced as a baby. I got them pierced when I was older because I wanted to wear earrings but I only have the one hole. I never wanted any more than the 1 hole in both ears. So I would let my kids decide when they were old enough to know what it was. I don't think babies or infants need their ears pierced at all but I see lots of parents who pierce their infant daughters and sons ears.

farout said:

The vast majority of men are circumcised.

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It's around 4 out of 5 in the US, yes.

Open Heart said:

My Mexican neighbors routinely pierce their infant daughters ears. I have no problem that.

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I'm almost certain that doesn't count, he said irreversible. The hole can grow closed, the foreskin doesn't grow back.