Circumcision

Tallguy88 · May 3, 2016

Locutus said:
1) Those other groups (besides Jews) may well once have done it, but they rarely do now.

2) So I take it you're planning to raise sons who are at high risk of exposure to HIV? Seriously, this is about the thinnest of defences. If DOCTORS say it's entirely unnecessary (for health reasons), I think we can safely conclude that it is.

As best I can find, Copic Orthodox and Ethiopian Orthodox both still do it. It makes sense, both groups are related, the Copts of Egypt helped evangelize the Ethiopians. And the Ethiopians have very strong Jewish connections.

And I can confirm first hand that American Evangelicals do it for religious reasons.

You said there were no health benefits, I showed you one where the benefits are scientifically indesputable. There are other benefits that are more in dispute some doctors advocate them, others do not. Our doctors here in the US usually advocate it or take a neutral stance. The state will often pay for elective circumcision through medicaid, as well.

Tallguy88 · May 3, 2016

Locutus said:
So the god designed the penis a certain way (carefully planning the details), but requires that the owners of said penises to alter them from this design? The PENIS? Not a haircut or some other non-invasive marker of difference, but the sexual organ?

Perhaps you'll have an appreciation of the merit of this idea - when it's plainly put.

It's a sign of the covenant, to show that we are set apart from un believers. So the default for gentiles is uncircumcision. Jews are required to be circumcised because they are still (they believe) under the Law of Moses. Christians are not under the Law of Moses, but circumcision is not forbidden to those Christians who wish to keep it as a sign of the covenant.

Tallguy88 · May 3, 2016

Locutus said:
I'd be interested to know what percentage of pro-circumcision theists are anti-cosmetic surgery (in teenagers and young adults particularly).

It wouldn't be an apples to apples comparason. Circumcision isn't typically done for cosmetic reasons, but religious, cultural, and perceived health reasons.

Meowzltov · May 3, 2016

Locutus said:
We don't choose to harm them for our own vain reasons. It's like having a baby and deciding you don't like the shape of his ears, so you have them surgically altered while he is an infant. Nothing wrong with the ears, but you simply prefer a slightly shorter lobe.

Is it any wonder doctors refuse to cater to this insanity?

Circumcision doesn't cause any harm.

Since I don't think there is any medical reason for circumcision, I can't see going to a doctor. A mohel is fine.

TerranceL · May 3, 2016

Open Heart said:
There are men who convert to Judaism as adults, and get circumcised as adults. You never hear them complain.

You honestly don't see the difference between an adult man choosing to do something and a baby having something forced upon them?

TerranceL · May 3, 2016

Open Heart said:
Parents make choices for their kids all the time. For example, we choose a child's religious upbringing.

Do you support foot binding too?

Meowzltov · May 3, 2016

Locutus said:
We're hardly likely to hear any complaints, given the tiny number of such. Besides, if someone is so enamoured of their new religion that they're prepared to cut off a part of their body, I don't think differences in sexual sensation are going to register very clearly.

There are enough converts that we would hear something. There have been converts in every Synagogue I have ever been a member of.

Meowzltov · May 3, 2016

TerranceL said:
You honestly don't see the difference between an adult man choosing to do something and a baby having something forced upon them?

It's NOT A BIG DEAL. It's no different than piercing your baby's ears.

TerranceL · May 3, 2016

Open Heart said:
It's NOT A BIG DEAL. It's no different than piercing your baby's ears.

Yes you've said that nonsense before. Which part of the ear is removed when it's pierced?

Meowzltov · May 3, 2016

TerranceL said:
Do you support foot binding too?

Unllke circumcision, foot binding destroys a basic bodily function.

Locutus · May 4, 2016

Tallguy88 said:
It's a sign of the covenant, to show that we are set apart from un believers. So the default for gentiles is uncircumcision. Jews are required to be circumcised because they are still (they believe) under the Law of Moses. Christians are not under the Law of Moses, but circumcision is not forbidden to those Christians who wish to keep it as a sign of the covenant.

So, in order to mark believers in a crowd, it was decided that the most hidden and private part of the human body would be a good flag? And that makes sense to you? That the male sex organ is the best place to advertise your allegiance?

Locutus · May 4, 2016

Open Heart said:
There are enough converts that we would hear something. There have been converts in every Synagogue I have ever been a member of.

Judaism is one of the hardest religions to 'convert' to. I take your word for it that converts are common where you are, but I would submit they're far less common overall than converts to other major faiths.

Meowzltov · May 4, 2016

Locutus said:
Judaism is one of the hardest religions to 'convert' to. I take your word for it that converts are common where you are, but I would submit they're far less common overall than converts to other major faiths.

Less common than other faiths? Sure.

Nithavela · May 4, 2016

Open Heart said:
It's NOT A BIG DEAL. It's no different than piercing your baby's ears.

Piercing a babies ear is vile, too.

Allow me to quote Kellog (the cornflakes guy):

2. Masturbation
In younger children, with whom moral considerations will have no particular weight, other devices may be used. Bandaging the parts has been practised with success. Tying the hands is also successful in some cases; but this will not always succeed, for they will often contrive to continue the habit in other ways, as by working the limbs, or lying upon the abdomen. Covering the organs with a cage has been practised with entire success. A remedy which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision, especially when there is any degree of phimosis. The operation should be performed without administering an anaesthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment, as it may well be in some cases. The soreness which continues for several weeks interrupts the practice, and if it had not previously become too firmly fixed, it may be forgotten and not resumed. …

[Infibulation]

Through the courtesy of Dr Archibald, Superintendent of the Iowa Asylum for Feeble-Minded Children, we have become acquainted with a method of treatment of this disorder which is applicable in refractory cases, and we have employed it with entire satisfaction. It consists in the application of one or more silver sutures in such a away as to prevent erection. The prepuce, or foreskin, is drawn forward over the glans, and the needle to which the wire is attached is passed through from one side to the other. After drawing the wire through, the ends are twisted together, and cut off close. It is now impossible for an erection to occur, and the slight irritation thus produced acts as a most powerful means of overcoming the disposition to resort to the practice. [2]

[Treatment of females]

In females, the author has found the application of pure carbolic acid to the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] an excellent means of allaying the abnormal excitement, and preventing the recurrence of the practice in those whose will power has become so weakened that the patient is unable to exercise entire self-control.

The worst cases among young women are those in which the disease has advanced so far that erotic thoughts are attended by the same voluptuous sensations which accompany the practice. The author has met many cases of this sort in young women, who acknowledged that the sexual [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] was thus produced, often several times daily. The application of carbolic acid in the manner described is also useful in these cases in allaying the abnormal excitement, which is a frequent provocation of the practice of this form of mental masturbation.

This is the reason why so many children get circumcised in the US. It's not because of tradition, or cultural or religious reasons, and certainly not about health benefits. It's about continuing a practice that was instituted to keep your children from touching themselves.

Meowzltov · May 4, 2016

Nithavela said:
This is the reason why so many children get circumcised in the US.

OH, I completely disagree. I think children get circumcized

for religious reasons
because "everyone does it"
to look like dad
for hygiene

Nithavela · May 4, 2016

Open Heart said:
OH, I completely disagree. I think children get circumcized

for religious reasons

because "everyone does it"

to look like dad

for hygiene

None of those are good reasons.

Reeniee · May 4, 2016

Nithavela said:
Piercing a babies ear is vile, too.

Allow me to quote Kellog (the cornflakes guy):

This is the reason why so many children get circumcised in the US. It's not because of tradition, or cultural or religious reasons, and certainly not about health benefits. It's about continuing a practice that was instituted to keep your children from touching themselves.

I cannot believe that people are defending this. I'm actually astounded.

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Dave-W · May 4, 2016

Loudmouth said:
If they were equivalent, then circumcision would remove the head of the penis entirely.

More like removing the entire penis that is external, i.e. all of the shaft as well.

Dave-W · May 4, 2016

Locutus said:
Those other groups (besides Jews) may well once have done it, but they rarely do now.

Normative Islam (of all 3 branches) require it. And not just the radicals or extremists.

Dave-W · May 4, 2016

Locutus said:
I'd be interested to know what percentage of pro-circumcision theists are anti-cosmetic surgery (in teenagers and young adults particularly).

That has always seemed rather odd to me as well.

Circumcision

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