Circumcision

[Yahudim]

I was just directing your attention to the questions we were dealing with here. After reading all the rabbit trails about circumcision, I came to the conclusion that some basic questions should be asked and basic answers established in order to establish some context, that's all.

I got the impression that people hold a number of different impressions about circumcision. I just thought it helpful if the basics are covered first and some consensus is established.

I take it you followed the link to the post I mentioned. What do you think?

Hi Talmidim. You linked me up with this thread. Am I missing something here? I hope not, because I think I'm a bit over extended on thread participation as it is. I just spent several hours responding to posts that were made only yesterday. Holy cow! I don't have that kind of time to spend on here. Anyway, is it a different thread your talking about, and maybe you need to check the links?

I had to remove the link in your quote because it won't let me post links until I have a post count of 50, even if it's quoting someone. Very aggravating to say the least.

 

[MadMaxData]

I was just directing your attention to the questions we were dealing with here. After reading all the rabbit trails about circumcision, I came to the conclusion that some basic questions should be asked and basic answers established in order to establish some context, that's all.

I got the impression that people hold a number of different impressions about circumcision. I just thought it helpful if the basics are covered first and some consensus is established.

Honestly, I think we should start fresh with a brand new thread for that, rather than an offshoot of another thread. It's an extremely important topic. Just my opinion.

I take it you followed the link to the post I mentioned. What do you think?

I'll have to get back with you on that, it's time for me to hit the rack right now. Until then, shalom.

 

[Yahudim]

I agree, but this is what we've got. Rest well chaver.

Honestly, I think we should start fresh with a brand new thread for that, rather than an offshoot of another thread. It's an extremely important topic. Just my opinion.

I'll have to get back with you on that, it's time for me to hit the rack right now. Until then, shalom.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Here are some useful links on brit milah, the covenant of circumcision from our friends at Chabad.org...
Brit Milah: The Covenant of Circumcision - Lifecycle Events

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

No they didn't, and that is an unfortrunate misconception. The Apostles ruled that the gentiles should abstain from certain things, and that they were not required to keep the laws that the Sanhedrin enforced concerning separating themselves from other gentiles, rendering themselves ritually unclean. If you carefully read the text you will see that nowhere does it say that gentiles should not be circumcised. That's an assumption, and adds to the Biblical text. What was "troubling" the gentiles [Acts 15:24] were the laws that the Sanhedrin enforced, as I explained in an earlier post. [#61]

If you disagree, then show me where it specifically says "gentiles should not be circumcised" in Acts chapter 15.

And please don't misunderstand me and think I'm saying gentiles cannot be saved unless they undergo brit milah. That's not what I'm saying at all.

Decision at the council, a written decree of the council to the Gentiles.

Ac 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turning to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

They send chosen men to deliver the writing (a decree) to the Gentiles. To confirm the sentence ( which was by the Holy spirit)

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Again, we have repeated that the decision was not written to the Jews, or concerning the Jews...
They are not to observe any such thing.....

Ac 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

 

[mercy1061]

Decision at the council, a written decree of the council to the Gentiles.

Ac 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turning to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

They send chosen men to deliver the writing (a decree) to the Gentiles. To confirm the sentence ( which was by the Holy spirit)

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

The apostles are simply saying the commandment did not originate with them, or the command did not come from them; it came from those who "SIT IN MOSES SEAT". Yeshua said to obey the pharisees! A higher authority than the apostles preached circumcision; so circumcison should be strictly obeyed, Yeshua never told them to do everything the apostles told them to do! Yeshua gave the pharisees special authority over the people.

Again, we have repeated that the decision was not written to the Jews, or concerning the Jews...
They are not to observe any such thing.....

Ac 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

The gentiles should not observe the gossip, that Pharisee Shaul was teaching against circumcision.....

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

The apostles are simply saying the commandment did not originate with them, or the command did not come from them; it came from those who "SIT IN MOSES SEAT". Yeshua said to obey the pharisees! A higher authority than the apostles preached circumcision; so circumcison should be strictly obeyed, Yeshua never told them to do everything the apostles told them to do! Yeshua gave the pharisees special authority over the people.

The Apostle's said they didn't give such commandment as it is written...

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:"

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

The apostles are simply saying the commandment did not originate with them, or the command did not come from them; it came from those who "SIT IN MOSES SEAT". Yeshua said to obey the pharisees! A higher authority than the apostles preached circumcision; so circumcison should be strictly obeyed, Yeshua never told them to do everything the apostles told them to do! Yeshua gave the pharisees special authority over the people.



The gentiles should not observe the gossip, that Pharisee Shaul was teaching against circumcision.....

The gentiles should not observe the gossip, that Pharisee Shaul was teaching against circumcision.....

The gossip was that Paul was teaching Jews NOT Gentiles to forsake Moses and circumcise, Jews are not to believe the gossip as it is written...

"And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs."

 

[mercy1061]

The Apostle's said they didn't give such commandment as it is written...

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:"

The Pharisee gave the commandment, yet the gentiles will not obey one command from the Pharisees , circumcision on the 8th day.

 

[mercy1061]

The gossip was that Paul was teaching Jews NOT Gentiles to forsake Moses and circumcise, Jews are not to believe the gossip as it is written...

"And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs."

The jews were among gentiles, why would Pharisee Shaul dishonor torah in public?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

The jews were among gentiles, why would Pharisee Shaul dishonor torah in public?

The gossip was that Paul taught Jews NOT Gentiles to forsake Moses and circumcision. The gossip had nothing to do with Gentiles.

He didn't dishonor Moses and circumcision because it was gossip, a false charge, Paul said it himself that it was false.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

The Pharisee gave the commandment, yet the gentiles will not obey one command from the Pharisees , circumcision on the 8th day.

The Apostle's said they gave no such commandment. The pharisee's said Gentiles should be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses and the Apostle's said we gave no such commandment.

The Apostle's wrote as it is written...

"As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication."

 

[mercy1061]

The gossip was that Paul taught Jews NOT Gentiles to forsake Moses and circumcision. The gossip had nothing to do with Gentiles.

He didn't dishonor Moses and circumcision because it was gossip, a false charge, Paul said it himself that it was false.

The jews were among gentiles, so the audience included gentiles.

 

[mercy1061]

The Apostle's said they gave no such commandment. The pharisee's said Gentiles should be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses and the Apostle's said we gave no such commandment.

The Apostle's wrote as it is written...

"As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication."

If the Queen of England says, "YOU MUST PAY YOUR TAXES!", then I say "I gave no such commandment". What I said does not disannul what the Queen of England has already said to those who live in the kingdom.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

If the Queen of England says, "YOU MUST PAY YOUR TAXES!", then I say "I gave no such commandment". What I said does not disannul what the Queen of England has already said to those who live in the kingdom.

That's not even relevant to the discussion. Your analogy doesn't work.

The Apostle's said they didn't give such commandment and even wrote...

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment"

The certain men said Gentiles must be circumcised and keep the law. The Apostles said they gave no such commandment.

 

[Lulav]

Decision at the council, a written decree of the council to the Gentiles.

Ac 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turning to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

They send chosen men to deliver the writing (a decree) to the Gentiles. To confirm the sentence ( which was by the Holy spirit)

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Again, we have repeated that the decision was not written to the Jews, or concerning the Jews...
They are not to observe any such thing.....

Ac 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

But marc, you are missing who this was written to. It was not like Cornelius, whom Peter was sent, but to heathens, newbies, Idolators!

I agree with James that they shouldn't put the cart before the horse. Let's try a different emphasis.

Ac 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turning to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

These were not G-d fearers like Cornelius and his family, they were not proselytes. The phrase 'are turning' is a first step, but far from a point where they should have been allowed even to join in the covenant. They needed teaching on how to be one of the true G-ds people. That is why James said to all the men present there that they would tell them to do these things to start with because they would learn the rest after hearing Moses preached, which I might add, you conveniently left out.

This is all one quote from James
"Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God; Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood; for from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat."

 

[etZion]

But marc, you are missing who this was written to. It was not like Cornelius, whom Peter was sent, but to heathens, newbies, Idolators!

I agree with James that they shouldn't put the cart before the horse. Let's try a different emphasis.



These were not G-d fearers like Cornelius and his family, they were not proselytes. The phrase 'are turning' is a first step, but far from a point where they should have been allowed even to join in the covenant. They needed teaching on how to be one of the true G-ds people. That is why James said to all the men present there that they would tell them to do these things to start with because they would learn the rest after hearing Moses preached, which I might add, you conveniently left out.

This is all one quote from James
"Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God; Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood; for from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat."

Well said, I also think the other point people miss, is that the context of what was "troubling" the gentiles...

Marc for example, thinks that the gentiles were being trouble by thinking that they might have to obey God now that they are coming to know Him, but not only is that absurd, it fails to address the context, instead what was troubling was a false gospel, in fact, Peter goes on to say, that the argument in verse 1, was neither true for Jew or gentile, it was a false doctrine.

We see Paul encounter these who teach this doctrine on multiple occasions and he calls them "the false circumcision".

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

But marc, you are missing who this was written to. It was not like Cornelius, whom Peter was sent, but to heathens, newbies, Idolators!

I agree with James that they shouldn't put the cart before the horse. Let's try a different emphasis.



These were not G-d fearers like Cornelius and his family, they were not proselytes. The phrase 'are turning' is a first step, but far from a point where they should have been allowed even to join in the covenant. They needed teaching on how to be one of the true G-ds people. That is why James said to all the men present there that they would tell them to do these things to start with because they would learn the rest after hearing Moses preached, which I might add, you conveniently left out.

This is all one quote from James
"Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God; Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood; for from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat."

There are laws that are universal to the Jew and the sojourner that dwells among you. The Apostle's considered the Gentiles as strangers that sojourn among you. Circumcision isn't one of them.

 

[Lulav]

There are laws that are universal to the Jew and the sojourner that dwells among you. The Apostle's considered the Gentiles as strangers that sojourn among you. http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=64957897

http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=64957897

No there are different kinds of goyim.

Those that are 'heathen' knowing of the true G-d but not wanting to obey him (like Balaam)
Those that are 'strangers' who have heard of the G-d of Israel and believe he is the true G-d (Like Orpah)
Those that want to be counted among his people. (Like Ruth)

You cannot merge them all into one box.

If it were true what you say here:

The Apostle's considered the Gentiles as strangers that sojourn among you.

Then that means they considered all the Roman's who tread down the Holy City and the land that G-d gave our ancestors as strangers or Gerim? and they are the same as the Gentile believers?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

[/URL]

No there are different kinds of goyim.

Those that are 'heathen' knowing of the true G-d but not wanting to obey him (like Balaam)
Those that are 'strangers' who have heard of the G-d of Israel and believe he is the true G-d (Like Orpah)
Those that want to be counted among his people. (Like Ruth)

You cannot merge them all into one box.

If it were true what you say here:



Then that means they considered all the Roman's who tread down the Holy City and the land that G-d gave our ancestors as strangers or Gerim? and they are the same as the Gentile believers?

A sojourner that dwells among you would be a gentile like Cornelius. There are laws that are universal to the Jew and the stranger that sojourns among you. For instance the Jew and the stranger that sojourns among you are both equally prohibited from offering a sacrifice outside the Temple.