Circumcision

[Caitlin.ann]

Strong evidence suggests circumcision can prevent human immunodeficiency virus/acquired immune deficiency syndrome acquisition in sub-Saharan African men. These findings remain uncertain in men residing in other countries. The role of adult nontherapeutic male circumcision in preventing sexually transmitted infections, urinary tract infections, and penile cancer remains unclear. Current evidence fails to recommend widespread neonatal circumcision for these purposes.

"Safety and efficacy of nontherapeutic male circumcision: a systematic review" by
Perera CL; Bridgewater FH; Thavaneswaran P; Maddern GJ

 

[yasic]

Not true. Non-religious circumcisions are done usually for health and hygiene reasons.

Yes, this would account for what, 80? 90? Circumcisions? Not percent, I mean total

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

No, I understand it. You're saying it's stupid that people are so hung up with minor surgeries that change how they look. If it's not an issue, why bother cutting off the foreskin? Many people even site aesthetics as the reason to do it. Fact is, it does matter to some people. If you're an adult and want a nose job, why should someone stop you? Conversely, if you're 16 and don't want a nose job, your parents shouldn't be able to force you to.

My point was there's a point where you have to wonder whether such hang-up about appearence are simply a matter of preference or a sign of something more serious.

Sure, if a person wants a nose job they can have it. "My body, my choice" - although you have to wonder if it's really 'their choice' when they're changing their looks simply to fit in with society's opinion on beauty. But when a person becomes irrationally upset about having anything less than 'the perfect nose' ... well you start to wonder if the issue is psychological rather than physical.

The same I suspect might go for a some men and circumcision. And no, I'm not suggesting all men who regret their circumcision are pathological.

 

[OGM]

My fiance is Canadian and he says its pretty much not done there anymore except for religious purposes.

Caitlin Ann; which is the same with current day; Argentina, Belgium, France, Czech Republic, Spain, Portugal, Slovakia, Germany, Slovenia, Croatia, Austria, Poland, China, Russia, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Cuba, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Iceland, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Japan, Netherlands, Singapore, South Africa, New Zealand, Switzerland, Chile, Columbia, Denmark, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Peru, Romania, Serbia, Thailand, Uruguay, Vanuatu, Venezuela, Vietnam… to name a few!

This whole women "hate natural penises" talk strikes me as very odd.

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Caitlin Ann; which is the same with current day; Argentina, Belgium, France, Czech Republic, Spain, Portugal, Slovakia, Germany, Slovenia, Croatia, Austria, Poland, China, Russia, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Cuba, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Iceland, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Japan, Netherlands, Singapore, South Africa, New Zealand, Switzerland, Chile, Columbia, Denmark, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Peru, Romania, Serbia, Thailand, Uruguay, Vanuatu, Venezuela, Vietnam… to name a few!

This whole women "hate natural penises" talk strikes me as very odd.

Lol well I can only truly speak as an American who has only ever been abroad to Canada. I speak as it is in southern Indiana.

 

[mpok1519]

I don't think its unethical; circumcision is a perfectly healthy procedure with known health benefits (in the past at least; today with modern hygenic practices, its pretty safe to say that just because if you get a little dirt in your foreskin, its not going to get infected...in biblical days, however...).

 

[Caitlin.ann]

I don't think its unethical; circumcision is a perfectly healthy procedure with known health benefits (in the past at least; today with modern hygenic practices, its pretty safe to say that just because if you get a little dirt in your foreskin, its not going to get infected...in biblical days, however...).

My thoughts too. I understand the need for circumcision in sub-Saharan Africa, but not Indiana, USA.

 

[OGM]

Lol well I can only truly speak as an American who has only ever been abroad to Canada. I speak as it is in southern Indiana.

Many of the above countries have a much lower HIV infection rate than the United States where circumcision is far more commonplace. It would seem that safer sexual practices are really what is needed in the world.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

My thoughts too. I understand the need for circumcision in sub-Saharan Africa, but not Indiana, USA.

It's good enough for them but not for us.
Teasing, teasing ...

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Many of the above countries have a much lower HIV infection rate than the United States where circumcision is far more commonplace. It would seem that safer sexual practices are really what is needed in the world.

Overall it would seem a condom is better than circumcision. The issue is getting people to use condoms.

 

[Caitlin.ann]

It's good enough for them but not for us.
Teasing, teasing ...

Lol, I know you're teasing, I just wanted to poke at it. The articles I find note that circumcision helps prevent HIV in those countries, however if condom use wore practiced I feel it would make the whole point moot. The issue is getting many of these people to use condoms.

 

[Umaro]

My point was there's a point where you have to wonder whether such hang-up about appearence are simply a matter of preference or a sign of something more serious.

Sure, if a person wants a nose job they can have it. "My body, my choice" - although you have to wonder if it's really 'their choice' when they're changing their looks simply to fit in with society's opinion on beauty. But when a person becomes irrationally upset about having anything less than 'the perfect nose' ... well you start to wonder if the issue is psychological rather than physical.

The same I suspect might go for a some men and circumcision. And no, I'm not suggesting all men who regret their circumcision are pathological.

But you're holding opposite views with it. For one, you're not saying "my body, my choice" when it comes to circumcision. Quite the opposite in fact.

And someone upset about having a less than "perfect nose" is different too. In that instance, they're unhappy with the nose they were born with. It would be an entirely different story if they had their nose altered against their will, and then were upset about the new one. I would say they'd be completely justified in that anger too.

 

[OGM]

Overall it would seem a condom is better than circumcision. The issue is getting people to use condoms.

The real problem is unprotected, underaged and forced sex in many of these countries. Here is what I have run in to in undeveloped countries:

A) The belief that anal sex cannot cause pregnancy. This is untrue but...many people are having unprotected anal sex to avoid pregnancy. Extremely risky behavior no matter what the state of one's foreskin is in.

B) Some believe that having sex with certain types of people will protect you from HIV/STDs.

C) The fact that many prostitutes and johns are I.V. drug users and share needles.

D) The lack of high quality medical system.

E) Lack of sex education programs.

F) Believes that condoms are evil.

G) People having sex with minors. The adults are making all of decisions for them

H) Sexual assault of woman and men on a very wide scale.

 

[Caitlin.ann]

The real problem is unprotected, underaged and forced sex in many of these countries. Here is what I have run in to in undeveloped countries:

A) The belief that anal sex cannot cause pregnancy. This is untrue but...many people are having unprotected anal sex to avoid pregnancy. Extremely risky behavior no matter what the state of one's foreskin is in.

B) Some believe that having sex with certain types of people will protect you from HIV/STDs.

C) The fact that many prostitutes and johns are I.V. drug users and share needles.

D) The lack of high quality medical system.

E) Lack of sex education programs.

F) Believes that condoms are evil.

G) People having sex with minors. The adults are making all of decisions for them

H) Sexual assault of woman and men on a very wide scale.

I know all that.

The belief that sex with virgins will cure HIV is prominent.

 

[Drekkan85]

But you're holding opposite views with it. For one, you're not saying "my body, my choice" when it comes to circumcision. Quite the opposite in fact.

And someone upset about having a less than "perfect nose" is different too. In that instance, they're unhappy with the nose they were born with. It would be an entirely different story if they had their nose altered against their will, and then were upset about the new one. I would say they'd be completely justified in that anger too.

I for one am in favour of my body my choice - circumcising an infant denies them the choice over their body.

It's like forcing a mastectomy on a infant girl. She's too young to know what's happening, it removes tissue that (given the advances in formula science) don't serve a function and prevents possible negative health effect (such as breast cancer).

Of course to do so would be unspeakably barbaric. So why do we allow the genitals of men to be mutilated? Because it was written in a book thousands of years ago?

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

But you're holding opposite views with it. For one, you're not saying "my body, my choice" when it comes to circumcision. Quite the opposite in fact.

And someone upset about having a less than "perfect nose" is different too. In that instance, they're unhappy with the nose they were born with. It would be an entirely different story if they had their nose altered against their will, and then were upset about the new one. I would say they'd be completely justified in that anger too.

Ah! Now you're making a good point. But again, my main argument is whether having (in our view) an 'imperfect' body is worth getting upset about - especially when our bodies are fully functional and look perfectly fine - regardless of whether we consented to it or not?

To go off on a slight tangent - if it were possible for such men to get a surgically-implanted foreskin ... well what are they expecting exactly? Will it magically make their sex lives better? Will it give their genitalia a more pleasing appearence? Or is it just a latent form of rebellion against their parents? Even if they didn't consent to the circumcision, would getting a foreskin really improve their lives so much?

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Its funny when it hides?

 

[Drekkan85]

Follow through to the actual video screen to get the notes where all references to actual peer reviewed studies can be found:

YouTube - The Doctors: Daytime Talk Show Disaster

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You should re-read the posts I've made in this thread before asking me that.

300 posts? Yea, I'm not that interested.

Why?

Because one's body is one's own, and no one else's. Except in extreme cases, notably where you pose a danger to other people's bodies (e.g., serial murderers), we don't have the right to do as we want to other people's bodies, for the simple reason that virtually all people don't want other's to be able to do what they want to their bodies.

Ultimately, the parent doesn't have the right to cut bits of skin off their child, regardless of age. Only the child has that right, because it is the child's body, and no one else's.

This should be the default position since, if it is wrong, the pieces of skin are still there to be chopped off. Once the pro-circumcision side can present any sound argument or evidence to warrant the surgical alteration of unconsenting people, only then can we test the default position with the alternative.

 

[laconicstudent]

What a fascinating thread.