Circumcision

mauricioalejandro · Feb 12, 2006

Tishri1 said:
If Paul wanted them just to wait awhile I would understand but his words are sooooo heated, why wouldn't he say just wait awhile?

Hello,

I think that Paul would never say "wait a while" because the Torah never says that the commandments given thru Abraham and Moses are applicable the other nations (goyim). The only thing that the Torah prescribes for Righteous goyim is the covenant thru Noach, which does not include circumcision. James finally recognized this (Acts).

I think that, more than "why didn't Paul approve of circumcision?", the question could be "why was James so insistent on it, at first?". Perhaps the simple answer for this is that circumcision had been a powerful way to distinguish one-self from the pagans (especially the Greco-Romans who were very averse to it). Also, once a boy is circumcised, it is nearly impossible to reverse that, so it would have been a powerful way to keep the descendants of the new Jesus followers within the movement.

M

Espada · Feb 12, 2006

mauricioalejandro said:
it is nearly impossible to reverse that

You mean it is possible to reverse it?

jgonz · Feb 12, 2006

You mean it is possible to reverse it?

Yes, it is possible to reverse a circumcision. Young Jewish men who wanted to play in the Roman games often had the procedure done to "hide" their Jewishness~ because they played naked and it was obvious who was Jewish and who wasn't.

The only thing that the Torah prescribes for Righteous goyim is the covenant thru Noach, which does not include circumcision.

I do not agree with this at all. Anyone who accepts Yeshua as their Messiah is grafted into the Vine, which is Jewish, and becomes part of Israel. That person is no longer a "goy" but Hebrew by adoption, which, as Wags said before, has the same rights AND responsibilities as a natural born Hebrew.

Espada · Feb 12, 2006

jgonz said:
I do not agree with this at all. Anyone who accepts Yeshua as their Messiah is grafted into the Vine, which is Jewish, and becomes part of Israel. That person is no longer a "goy" but Hebrew by adoption, which, as Wags said before, has the same rights AND responsibilities as a natural born Hebrew.

Did you know that under Roman law an adopted son has more rights than a natural born son? They could no longer be put to death by the father, their inheritance was also garunteed, and they could not be disowned. A natural born son had none of these rights. As a result many fathers would adopt their natural born sons. This is what Paul was refering to when he spoke of adoption. I found understanding this aspect of Roman life really helped when the NT talks about adoption.

jgonz · Feb 12, 2006

Did you know that under Roman law an adopted son has more rights than a natural born son? They could no longer be put to death by the father, their inheritance was also garunteed, and they could not be disowned. A natural born son had none of these rights. As a result many fathers would adopt their natural born sons. This is what Paul was refering to when he spoke of adoption. I found understanding this aspect of Roman life really helped when the NT talks about adoption.

That's very interesting!

Yovel · Feb 12, 2006

Espada said:
Did you know that under Roman law an adopted son has more rights than a natural born son? They could no longer be put to death by the father, their inheritance was also garunteed, and they could not be disowned. A natural born son had none of these rights. As a result many fathers would adopt their natural born sons. This is what Paul was refering to when he spoke of adoption. I found understanding this aspect of Roman life really helped when the NT talks about adoption.

Here in the USA if you are adopted you can't be disinherited, but if you are natural born your parents can disinherit you. Because we are a Republic I guess we have similar laws like the Romans.

mauricioalejandro · Feb 12, 2006

mauricioalejandro said:
The only thing that the Torah prescribes for Righteous goyim is the covenant thru Noach, which does not include circumcision..

jgonz said:
I do not agree with this at all. Anyone who accepts Yeshua as their Messiah is grafted into the Vine, which is Jewish, and becomes part of Israel. That person is no longer a "goy" but Hebrew by adoption, which, as Wags said before, has the same rights AND responsibilities as a natural born Hebrew.

Is there anywhere in the Torah (TNK) where it talks about "acceptance of Moshiach resulting in adoption into the nation of Yisrael" ? I have never heard of that. I'm sure there is plenty that talks about the Goyim recognizing YHWH as their only God, but nothing about the Goyim becoming Jews just by virtue of acceptance of Moschiach. The New Testament is even more clear on this (Paul certainly talks about adoption of the Gentile branch onto the Tree-trunk of Yisrael, but he goes out of his way in the extreme to leave no doubt that the Law, circumcision included, is not for Gentiles.).

Having said that, Paul also warns that IF a Gentile decides on his own to get circumcised, then he has become a Jew and MUST must follow ALL the Law ... but Paul never says that a Gentile SHOULD get circumcised or follow any Mosaic Law (quite the contrary in the extreme).

My take on this would be that if a Gentile wants to convert to Judaism, that's fine, but it is certainly not necessary as part of accepting Jesus or as part of accepting YHWH. (If there is scripture to the contrary, pls let me know...).

M

jgonz · Feb 12, 2006

Is there anywhere in the Torah (TNK) where it talks about "acceptance of Moshiach resulting in adoption into the nation of Yisrael" ? I have never heard of that. I'm sure there is plenty that talks about the Goyim recognizing YHWH as their only God, but nothing about the Goyim becoming Jews just by virtue of acceptance of Moschiach.

OT Scripture does talk about sojourners, aliens, and strangers who want to follow the one true G-d being adopted, and having the same rights and responsibilities as natural born Israel.

(Paul certainly talks about adoption of the Gentile branch onto the Tree-trunk of Yisrael, but he goes out of his way in the extreme to leave no doubt that the Law, circumcision included, is not for Gentiles.).

I disagree. You need to remember that Paul was Jewish, and was teaching from a Jewish viewpoint. The basic understanding we get from Acts 15 is that new believers were going to hear Moses preached every week on Sabbath. The Law/Torah instructions were/are for Every Believer~ Jew or Gentile. That was the new thing~ that Gentiles were being included. Not that the Law wasn't to be observed anymore.

Circumcision is a outward sign of the Covenant with Abraham and does Not have anything to do with salvation. Just like following Torah. It's not for salvation, it's for a G-dly lifestyle and our "good works that were ordained before the foundation of the world".

Wags · Feb 12, 2006

Circ is the seal - it comes after repentence.

mauricioalejandro · Feb 13, 2006

mauricio said:
Is there anywhere in the Torah (TNK) where it talks about "acceptance of Moshiach resulting in adoption into the nation of Yisrael" ? I have never heard of that. I'm sure there is plenty that talks about the Goyim recognizing YHWH as their only God, but nothing about the Goyim becoming Jews just by virtue of acceptance of Moschiach.

jgonz said:
OT Scripture does talk about sojourners, aliens, and strangers who want to follow the one true G-d being adopted, and having the same rights and responsibilities as natural born Israel.

TNK says that Ger Toshav (sojourners, aliens and strangers living in the land of Israel) are compelled to obey certain laws (but those are a few very specific laws and never is circumcision included). Are you saying that by accepting Moschiach a Gentile becomes a "virtual" Sojourner/Alien/Stranger in the land of Israel without having to physically reside there? I don't know anywhere in TNK or NT where it says that. Furthermore even if that was the case, Ger Toshav are not required to follow the entire law, but only the specific things called out (circumcision is never called out or even implied). If you know scripture that says otherwise, pls let me know.

jgonz said:
The basic understanding we get from Acts 15 is that new believers were going to hear Moses preached every week on Sabbath. The Law/Torah instructions were/are for Every Believer~ Jew or Gentile. That was the new thing~ that Gentiles were being included. Not that the Law wasn't to be observed anymore.

Of course the gentiles were being included and asked to comply with the Torah, however never does the Torah ask that Gentiles follow the 613 Mitzvot. The only injunctions Torah prescribes for Gentiles are the Noachide Laws, or the few additional laws which you pointed out for Ger Toshav (which apply to a gentile residing physically in Israel, and which never include circumcision). Are you aware of scripture that says otherwise?
Mauricio

DanielRB · Feb 13, 2006

Shalom all,

To partake in the Passover, a Gentile had to be circumcised (Exodus 12:48). However, Eunchs (who obviously could not be circumcised), were promised a "name better than sons or daughters" if they "keep my Sabbaths and choose the things that please me and hold fast to my covenant" (Isa 56:4).

There really is nothing in the Tanakh that talks specifically about a conversion process. The so-called "Noahic Laws" are a Rabbinic tradition that I do not find compelling.

Torah is a way of life. It does not have to do with eternal life; I believe that confusing Torah Observance with that which brings salvation from eternal death was the main problem with the Galatians. Torah is a way of righteousness, not a a way of eternal life. Only Yeshua is the way of eternal life.

The Pauline letters are confusing, I think everyone realizes (even Peter--2 Pet 3:15-16). But the words of Messiah are clear; Torah is not to be done away with (Matt 5:17-20).

Gentiles are not to be compelled to be circumcised, they are already saved by virtue of Messiah, not their obedience. But circumcision is not to be done away with for the children of Israel.

In Messiah,

Daniel

Wags · Feb 13, 2006

DanielRB said:
There really is nothing in the Tanakh that talks specifically about a conversion process.

Have to disagree with you that there isn't anything about conversion.... what do you think "citizen of the land " means?

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Exodus 12:48 If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe ADONAI's Pesach, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it.

[/FONT]And Isaiah addresses more than just the eunuchs - it addresses the foreigners (gentiles) who join Adonai as well. And note the instructions to them that they are not seperate from His people.
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[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Isaiah 56:3 A foreigner joining ADONAI should not say, "ADONAI will separate me from his people"[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Isaiah 56: 6 "And the foreigners who join themselves to ADONAI to serve him, to love the name of ADONAI, and to be his workers, all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it, and hold fast to my covenant, 7 I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all peoples." [/FONT]

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There are NOT two ways to salvation and there are NOT two ways for a righteous person to live. There is only ONE way to salvation and that is through Messiah Yeshua - and there is only ONE way to live a life pleasing to Adonai and that is by observing His instructions (Torah). And we know this becuase Yeshua himself said so:

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Matthew 5:18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

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Matthew 7:21-29 21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants. 22 On that Day, many will say to me, `Lord, Lord! Didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we expel demons in your name? Didn't we perform many miracles in your name?' 23 Then I will tell them to their faces, `I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!'

If Paul's writings appear to disagree with Yeshua's words and the words of Torah then either we aren't understanding him correclty or he is wrong.
[/FONT]

Tishri1 · Feb 13, 2006

DanielRB said:
Shalom all,

To partake in the Passover, a Gentile had to be circumcised (Exodus 12:48). However, Eunchs (who obviously could not be circumcised), were promised a "name better than sons or daughters" if they "keep my Sabbaths and choose the things that please me and hold fast to my covenant" (Isa 56:4).

There really is nothing in the Tanakh that talks specifically about a conversion process. The so-called "Noahic Laws" are a Rabbinic tradition that I do not find compelling.

Torah is a way of life. It does not have to do with eternal life; I believe that confusing Torah Observance with that which brings salvation from eternal death was the main problem with the Galatians. Torah is a way of righteousness, not a a way of eternal life. Only Yeshua is the way of eternal life.

The Pauline letters are confusing, I think everyone realizes (even Peter--2 Pet 3:15-16). But the words of Messiah are clear; Torah is not to be done away with (Matt 5:17-20).

Gentiles are not to be compelled to be circumcised, they are already saved by virtue of Messiah, not their obedience. But circumcision is not to be done away with for the children of Israel.

In Messiah,

Daniel

AMEN DANIEL! HIGH FIVE!

Tishri1 · Feb 13, 2006

Wags said:
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If Paul's writings appear to disagree with Yeshua's words and the words of Torah then either we aren't understanding him correclty or he is wrong.
[/FONT]

I agree and I think we are understanding Him wrong....lets keep diggng people

Tishri1 · Feb 13, 2006

BUMP! I know Gentiles could not go into the Temple because they were not circ* and I know they could not partake of the Passover Lamb because they were not circ* these two event and the act of circ* itself were connected to the Temple.....HMMMMM I'm just throwing this out as a hypothesis.....what if Circ* is suspended untill we have a new Temple?

1. we know that the Jews and Gentiles in the Wilderness didn't Circ* untill right before they entered into the land
2. we know they didn't keep passover untill they entered into the land (that is true right?)

3. we know that Circ* at least for Yeshua was done in the Temple (was it done anywhere else in his day, this paert I don't know)

4.We know Circ* has notthing to do with salvation

5. we know it does have to do with Torah observance AND we know that because we don't have a Temple we cannot do ALL the mitzvot...HMMMMMM

Still Pauls words are very clear even before the Temple was torn down

If Paul wanted them just to wait awhile I would understand but his words are sooooo heated, why wouldn't he say just wait awhile?

he wanted what's his name to get circ* yes but they were going to the Temple too weren't they?

I know someone out there has the answer!

did anyone read Tim Hagues Article? What do you think about the seed therory?

what do you guys think about these points, did they make any sence?

mauricioalejandro · Feb 13, 2006

Wags said:
I Have to disagree ... that there isn't anything about conversion.... What do you think "citizen of the land " means?

Exodus 12:48 If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe ADONAI's Pesach, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it.
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
[/FONT]And Isaiah addresses more than just the eunuchs - it addresses the foreigners (gentiles) who join Adonai as well. And note the instructions to them that they are not seperate from His people.
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
[/FONT]
Isaiah 56:3 A foreigner joining ADONAI should not say, "ADONAI will separate me from his people"

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Isaiah 56: 6 "And the foreigners who join themselves to ADONAI to serve him, to love the name of ADONAI, and to be his workers, all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it, and hold fast to my covenant, 7 I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all peoples."

[/FONT]

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Indeed. The above are all injunctions that Torah specifies for gentile foreigners in the land of Israel.
Still, there is nothing that I can see where Torah is asking gentiles to follow any of the Sinai commandments (except when a gentile is residing in the land of Israel, and even in that case notice above in Exo 12:48 that the commandment is not that the Gentile MUST do Pesach and get Circumcised, but rather that IF the gentile resident WANTS to follow Pesach, THEN he must circumcise). In summary I find no-where that Torah commands gentiles in their own land to get circumcised. Even when we say that Gentiles come under Torah when they accept Moschiach, the letter of that same Torah does not command those Gentiles to get circumcised.
If anyone knows scripture that indicates otherwise, please let me know.
Mauricio

Wags said:
There are NOT two ways to salvation and there are NOT two ways for a righteous person to live. There is only ONE way to salvation and that is through Messiah Yeshua - and there is only ONE way to live a life pleasing to Adonai and that is by observing His instructions (Torah). And we know this becuase Yeshua himself said so ...

[/FONT]

Wags said:
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]If Paul's writings appear to disagree with Yeshua's words and the words of Torah then either we aren't understanding him correclty or he is wrong.
[/FONT]

Paul is not in disagreement here with Yeshua. Yeshua said Torah holds. Paul is saying that the Sinai Law does not apply to Gentiles but only to Jews, but this is completely consistent with Torah because never does the Torah mandate the Sinai law for gentiles in their own land (and certainly not circumcision, which is the topic of this thread); what Torah DOES specify for gentiles in their own land is the Noachic laws and (not coincidentally) the 4 laws agreed upon by James and Paul in Acts) are all Noachic laws.

Having said this, where I DO find Paul being inconsistent with Yeshua and Torah is when Paul scolds Peter for keeping Kosher in the company of Gentiles at a gathering in Antioch. I find it hard to accept that Peter can be exempt from the Sinai Law under any circumstances (in spite of the dream that is mentioned in NT where all things are made lawfull to eat).... but that is probably a topic for a different thread....

Mauricio

Tishri1 · Feb 13, 2006

mauricioalejandro said:
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[/FONT]

Having said this, where I DO find Paul being inconsistent with Yeshua and Torah is when Paul scolds Peter for keeping Kosher in the company of Gentiles at a gathering in Antioch. I find it hard to accept that Peter can be exempt from the Sinai Law under any circumstances (in spite of the dream that is mentioned in NT where all things are made lawfull to eat).... but that is probably a topic for a different thread....

Mauricio

Mauricio I wish we could give you the speedy version of understanding these passages...

You guys these topics should have stickys on them as they come up soooooooooo often

Who can dig them all up for Mauricio?
Are you interested in them M?

Yovel · Feb 13, 2006

jgonz said:
I disagree. You need to remember that Paul was Jewish, and was teaching from a Jewish viewpoint. The basic understanding we get from Acts 15 is that new believers were going to hear Moses preached every week on Sabbath. The Law/Torah instructions were/are for Every Believer~ Jew or Gentile. That was the new thing~ that Gentiles were being included. Not that the Law wasn't to be observed anymore.

Circumcision is a outward sign of the Covenant with Abraham and does Not have anything to do with salvation. Just like following Torah. It's not for salvation, it's for a G-dly lifestyle and our "good works that were ordained before the foundation of the world".

Right on Jan.

Yovel · Feb 13, 2006

Wags said:
Circ is the seal - it comes after repentence.

YES!
If you don't repent (turn away from sin) then getting cric'd is hipocracy

Wags · Feb 13, 2006

mauricioalejandro - since your faith icon is hidden I don't know if you are messianic or not, so I'm not sure if it is "legal " for me to debate with you..... but here is my reply: (mods feel free to delate if this is a rule violation)

The scripture I posted previously would indicate that gentiles are only obliged to keep Torah when they have chosen to join Adonai, to serve Him.

Is some one really a believer if they refuse to follow the example set by Yeshua? He said that only those that do the will of Adonai will enter into the kingdom. Torah is what the will of Adonai is.

David was said to be a "man after Adonai's own heart" - perhaps a reading of Psalm 119 might be in order if anyone doubts the importance of Torah in a righteous persons life.

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Circumcision

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