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But as a Believer who's been grafted into the Vine, doesn't circumcision of the heart count as the same circumcision for the Passover?The foreigner can not partake of Passover if he is no circumsicesd.
jgonz said:But as a Believer who's been grafted into the Vine, doesn't circumcision of the heart count as the same circumcision for the Passover?
Yovel said:The foreigner can not partake of Passover if he is no circumsicesd.
Exo 12:48 When a stranger shall live as a foreigner with you, and will keep the Pesach to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one who is born in the land: but no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.
Wags said:Once a non-believer has chosen to follow Adonai and to be called child of Abraham they are grafted into the family tree, and consequently they have the same rights and RESPONSIBILITIES as any other member of the family.
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MattyJames said:But what circumcision does this verse refer to? It does not make clear as to wether Adoni means circumcision of the flesh, or circumcision of the heart.
Would any of you be able to read the original text to gain a better insight?
thanks,
MattyJames
Exo 4:21 The LORD said to Moshe, "When you go back into Egypt, see that you do before Par`oh all the wonders which I have put in your hand, but I will harden his heart and he will not let the people go.
Exo 4:22 You shall tell Par`oh, 'Thus says the LORD, Yisra'el is my son, my firstborn,
Exo 4:23 and I have said to you, "Let my son go, that he may serve me;" and you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn.'"
Exo 4:24 It happened on the way at a lodging place, that the LORD met him and wanted to kill him.
Exo 4:25 Then Tzipporah took a flint, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet; and she said, "Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me."
Exo 4:26 So he let him alone. Then she said, "You are a bridegroom of blood," because of the circumcision.
Yovel said:Exo 12:48 When a stranger shall live as a foreigner with you, and will keep the Pesach to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one who is born in the land: but no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.
Well Matty, at this time in the Torah I believe G-d was talking about circumcision of the flesh, not the heart.
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Deuteronomy (D'varim)10:[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]12 "So now, Isra'el, all that ADONAI your God asks from you is to fear ADONAI your God, follow all his ways, love him and serve ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being; 13 to obey, for your own good, the mitzvot and regulations of ADONAI which I am giving you today. 14 See, the sky, the heaven beyond the sky, the earth and everything on it all belong to ADONAI your God. 15 Only ADONAI took enough pleasure in your ancestors to love them and choose their descendants after them -yourselves -above all peoples, as he still does today. 16 Therefore, circumcise the foreskin of your heart; and don't be stiffnecked any longer! 17 For ADONAI your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, mighty and awesome God, who has no favorites and accepts no bribes. 18 He secures justice for the orphan and the widow; he loves the foreigner, giving him food and clothing. 19 Therefore you are to love the foreigner, since you were foreigners in the land of Egypt. 20 You are to fear ADONAI your God, serve him, cling to him and swear by his name. 21 He is your praise, and he is your God, who has done for you these great and awesome things, which you have seen with your own eyes.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Deuteronomy (D'varim) 30:[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 "When the time arrives that all these things have come upon you, both the blessing and the curse which I have presented to you; and you are there among the nations to which ADONAI your God has driven you; then, at last, you will start thinking about what has happened to you; 2 and you will return to ADONAI your God and pay attention to what he has said, which will be exactly what I am ordering you to do today - you and your children, with all your heart and all your being. 3 At that point, ADONAI your God will reverse your exile and show you mercy; he will return and gather you from all the peoples to which ADONAI your God scattered you. 4 If one of yours was scattered to the far end of the sky, ADONAI your God will gather you even from there; he will go there and get you. 5 ADONAI your God will bring you back into the land your ancestors possessed, and you will possess it; he will make you prosper there, and you will become even more numerous than your ancestors. 6 Then ADONAI your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your children, so that you will love ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being, and thus you will live. 7 ADONAI your God will put all these curses on your enemies, on those who hated and persecuted you; 8 but you will return and pay attention to what ADONAI says and obey all his mitzvot which I am giving you today. 9 Then ADONAI your God will give you more than enough in everything you set out to do - the fruit of your body, the fruit of your livestock, and the fruit of your land will all do well; for ADONAI will once again rejoice to see you do well, just as he rejoiced in your ancestors. 10 "However, all this will happen only if you pay attention to what ADONAI your God says, so that you obey his mitzvot and regulations which are written in this book of the Torah, if you turn to ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being.[/FONT]
Ro 2:26 - Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the Torah, won't his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?
In these Scriptures does "circumcised" always mean "Jew" and "uncircumcised" always mean Gentile? Or does it actually have to do with the act of the brit milah as a sign of the covenant to Abraham? I've heard it taught that these Scriptures were written to teach the gentiles that they didn't have to undergo ritual immersion and circumcision in order to be saved like the Judaizers believed. however... the part that says "he shouldn't undergo brit milah" still perplexes me.1Co 7:18 - Was someone already circumcised when he was called? Then he should not try to remove the marks of his circumcision. Was someone uncircumcised when he was called? He shouldn't undergo b'rit-milah. 19 Being circumcised means nothing, and being uncircumcised means nothing; what does mean something is keeping God's commandments.
well said Wags (better than me today, i cant seem to think well today, drove for over 5 hours yesterdayWags said:Well if you mean the "hoops" other than circ. then maybe... circ isn't necessary before you are a believer - torah is all about a redeemed person's (the theme of Passover - redeemed from Egypt, redeemed by the blood of the lamb....) right relationship with their redeemer.
I think sometimes people get the idea that a circumcized heart is a "new testament" or a "paul thing" but in fact it is mentioned in torah. The concept is found twice in D'varim in chapters 10 & 30:
missju said:So in order to celebrate Pesach one must be circumcised in the flesh... but in order to be a child of G-d one must be circumcised in the heart. hm.
what say you about this?
In these Scriptures does "circumcised" always mean "Jew" and "uncircumcised" always mean Gentile? Or does it actually have to do with the act of the brit milah as a sign of the covenant to Abraham? I've heard it taught that these Scriptures were written to teach the gentiles that they didn't have to undergo ritual immersion and circumcision in order to be saved like the Judaizers believed. however... the part that says "he shouldn't undergo brit milah" still perplexes me.
And how can someone follow Torah when one is not able to participate in Pesach? Doesn't that make the Scripture more confusing? So shouldn't the circumcision of the heart matter for observing Pesach? Or did Paul not want these gentile uncircumcised people observing Pesach??
Ro 2:26 - Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the Torah, won't his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?
amen that is exactly what I think!Wags said:If Paul were using circ and uncirc to refer to Jews and Gentiles then perhaps this verse could be seen this way...
If a gentile keeps the righteous requirements of the Troah won't he be counted as a Jew? (Jew - meaning a child of Abraham) Reading it that way it fits with his "grafted in" comments.
I'm not sure about the brit milah comment, but it is possible he was again refering to the rabbinical ritual of his day. It would be impossible to follow Torah and not be circ'd.
Once again if you substitue the words Jew & Gentile - it makes a lot more sense.... If you were a Jew when you became a believer, don't start acting like a Gentile. (could that mean don't go to church on Sunday, abandon torah etc) If you were a Gentile then there is no need for you to go to the local rabbinical authority to convert, just follow torah.
As for immersion - did not Yeshua say "[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh." (Matt 28:19)
So obviously Paul would not be teaching against immersion as a whole, but against the ritual of conversion as set up by the religious establishment of the day.
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Wags said:If Paul were using circ and uncirc to refer to Jews and Gentiles then perhaps this verse could be seen this way...
If a gentile keeps the righteous requirements of the Troah won't he be counted as a Jew? (Jew - meaning a child of Abraham) Reading it that way it fits with his "grafted in" comments.
I'm not sure about the brit milah comment, but it is possible he was again refering to the rabbinical ritual of his day. It would be impossible to follow Torah and not be circ'd. (Emphasis by MJ)
Once again if you substitue the words Jew & Gentile - it makes a lot more sense.... If you were a Jew when you became a believer, don't start acting like a Gentile. (could that mean don't go to church on Sunday, abandon torah etc) If you were a Gentile then there is no need for you to go to the local rabbinical authority to convert, just follow torah.
As for immersion - did not Yeshua say "[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh." (Matt 28:19)
So obviously Paul would not be teaching against immersion as a whole, but against the ritual of conversion as set up by the religious establishment of the day.
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MattyJames said:I think so too.
But the only logical explination for the bolded area is that G*d was talking about Cir* of the HEART not of the FLESH. If Ex 12 is read in this light then it would all make sense.
What do you all think??
[/FONT]19 During those seven days, no leaven is to be found in your houses. Whoever eats food with hametz in it is to be cut off from the community of Isra'el - it doesn't matter whether he is a foreigner or a citizen of the land. 20 Eat nothing with hametz in it. Wherever you live, eat matzah.'"
43 ADONAI said to Moshe and Aharon, "This is the regulation for the Pesach lamb: no foreigner is to eat it. 44 But if anyone has a slave he bought for money, when you have circumcised him, he may eat it. 45 Neither a traveler nor a hired servant may eat it. 46 It is to be eaten in one house. You are not to take any of the meat outside the house, and you are not to break any of its bones. 47 The whole community of Isra'el is to keep it. 48 If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe ADONAI's Pesach, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it. 49 The same teaching is to apply equally to the citizen and to the foreigner living among you."
YeshuamySalvation said:
Yeshua My Salvation > the origin of the circumcision made by hand comes from men not from God, the circumcision that was given to Abraham came from God not from men.
1 Cor 7:19 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Yeshua My Salvation > from first glance Paul statement seems to be contradictory, first he saids "Circumcision" is nothing, and "uncircumcision" is also nothing, but the keeping of the "commandments of God" which does not exclude circumcision sounds funny, What he means In other words, one does not have an advantage over the other, yet, he says, we must keep the commandments of God. "Which also includes circumcision".
sounds like a cotradiction but it's not, rather there is an allusion to circumcision for the purpose of a sign of conversion having been substituted by baptism, but circumcision remains as a hygienic requirement. Paul is stating that circumcision is not enough, we must circumcise the foreskin of our hearts [Deut.10:16; Deut.30:6; Jere.4:4] by Keeping all of the commandments of God and not just circumcision alone.
Blessings
Thank you so much my brother, only through Yeshua we can do it without him we can do nothing...MattyJames said:Greetings YMS,
I agree with the rest of your postGood Preaching brother.
I know it came from G-d, but what i meant to say is that some were trying to impose it on others as essential to there Salvation.... If you were not circumcisied you could not be saved.... you would be considerd an outcast... that is why i believe that the circumcision made by hands is not the circumcision G-d gave to "Abraham as a seal of righteousness of the faith"... the circumcision made by hands came from mans imagination and contradicts the gospel of grace as taught in the bible Old Tetament and New..But...A few things I'm finding hard to understand.
Either cir' of the Flesh came from G-d or from man. I believe that it came from G-d. I think your splitting hairs there. The circumstances by which circumcisiom is undertaken can either be of Man or of G-d.
Joshua 5:2 It was at that time that ADONAI said to Y'hoshua, "Make yourself knives of flint, and circumcise the people of Isra'el again, a second time. 3 So Y'hoshua made himself knives of flint and circumcised the people of Isra'el at Giv'at-Ha'Aralot [the hill of foreskins]. 4 The reason Y'hoshua circumcised was that all the people who had left Egypt who were males, all the fighting men, had died in the desert along the way after leaving Egypt. 5 For although all the people who left Egypt had been circumcised, all those who had been born in the desert on the way as they went on from Egypt had not been circumcised; 6 because the people of Isra'el walked forty years in the desert until the whole nation, that is, the fighting men who had left Egypt, had died out; because they had not heeded what ADONAI said. ADONAI had sworn that he would not allow them to see the land which ADONAI swore to their ancestors that he would give us, a land flowing with milk and honey. 7 So he raised up their children to take their place, and it was these whom Y'hoshua circumcised; till then they had been uncircumcised, because they had not been circumcised while traveling. 8 When all the nation had been circumcised, every one of them, they stayed where they were in camp until they had healed. 9 ADONAI said to Y'hoshua, "Today I have rolled off from you the stigma of Egypt." This is why the place has been called Gilgal [rolling] ever since.
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