Circumcision is Messed Up

[RaymondG]

This is also a debated topic, however a slight difference. MMR vaccines have the ability to prevent death, while circumcision doesn't.

Both debatable, yes. Did some research. Approximately 117 deaths every year from circumcision........all which can be avoided because it is elective......now for vaccines

Approximately 3000 to 4500 serious reactions to vaccines that lead to hospitalization and/or death according to the CDC. Again they all could be prevented as well......risk death to avoid the flu? A week or two bed rest or an eternity in heaven or hell?
(That reminds me, need to start a new thread: "if heaven is our goal, why do we try to avoid death at all cost...dr. Gives us Bad news and we on our knees...God I love you...but I don't want to see you this soon!) But I digress.

Now the question is, would you give your child a vaccine without their consent? And what should others feel about you doing so, if you do?

 

[Tetra]

The glans isn't in any danger from being exposed. It still spends most of its time in underwear and in pants. Just be careful with the zipper and you'll be alright, though I suspect that's good advice even if you are uncircumcised.

I'm gonna take a break and come back at it tomorrow.

It's an emotional topic for me and I honestly don't mean to be hurtful. Sorry if I was offensive... just passionate is all.

 

[Kiterius]

I don't get circumcision at all... and to be honest, to me it seems messed up that Christians still practice it.

No matter how you justify it, it's the genital mutilation of an un-consenting child. If you have proof that it's not, love to hear it.

Also, if it's so important, why aren't people simply allowing their child to make that decision when they're older?

Does anyone know why Christian's are still practicing this? I'd really love the female perspective on this from Christian mothers as well.

Well, for one thing it's more aesthetically pleasing.

 

[Tetra]

Well, for one thing it's more aesthetically pleasing.

I have to be honest here, circumcised or not, nothing about a penis is aesthetically pleasing.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I have to be honest here, circumcised or not, nothing about a penis is aesthetically pleasing.

The rite, practised by Jews, is something which distinguishes them from Gentiles; therefore Jews are likely to regard efforts to stop circumcision as anti-Semitic.

 

[Tallguy88]

Well, for one thing it's more aesthetically pleasing.

I wasn't going to go there, but I agree it looks better circ. Every woman I've asked about it also said they prefer circ.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

no reason a child cannot make that decision for himself when he's older.

To be fair we all know almost no man would have it done if they had the choice. They could tell me it would expand my life 5 years longer and I wouldn't do it because as an adult I don't want to have anything done to that region down there. I know having kidney stones I have to have procedures down there to often and I only let them do it because my life literally hands in the balance.

And with one kidney left my doctor did ask if I was circumcised. Because he said I have to be VERY careful about getting infections. Whether from sex or whatever. He said being circumcised will VERY much improve the odds I won't get any infection. That along with obviously being careful.

You're altering the definition to fit your worldview. I'm claiming the human body is being mutilated by removing a piece which serves function. Just like removing my eyelid would be the mutilation of my body. Just because my eye still works doesn't mean my body wasn't mutilated.

Well technically I could say the same of your definition. I mean I had my wisdom teeth removed as a teen not really by my choice. My parents said it would be best. And now my right side of my mouth, my teeth have big spaces inbetween them since they spread out more.

That would be mutilation to me really. Because it does actually affect things. Where as cutting off skin does nothing. Well side from hurt at first.

Again, my eyelid is just a piece of skin... I'd like it to stay where it is too.

Technically its more then just a piece of skin. Alot more. And it has a purpose. Where as the skin down below has no purpose. Its literally just skin. It doesn't affect anything that happens down there, well not for the worst at least. When I recently fell and scrapped my skin off my finger I didn't sue the place because I was mutilated. Because I wasn't. It was a scrape. The missing skin grows back (well and scars) but won't affect anything.

I'll maintain my position, don't think it's okay to cut off pieces of children.

I'd make a reverse response but "cutting off pieces of children" sounds way worse then it really is. When I hear that I think of the female circumcision they do in places like africa where they literally do mutilate by doing a removal of the clitoral hood and clitoral glans; removal of the inner labia; and removal of the outer labia and then the closure of the vulva.

See... now thats actual mutilation. At least in my view.

It's an emotional topic for me and I honestly don't mean to be hurtful. Sorry if I was offensive... just passionate is all.

Ah I see. I take it its because it was done to you? If so the I now understand better why you are emotional about it. Whatever the case I am truly sorry then because obviously your upset about it for more personal reasons.

 

[Tallguy88]

I'm gonna take a break and come back at it tomorrow.

It's an emotional topic for me and I honestly don't mean to be hurtful. Sorry if I was offensive... just passionate is all.

So far, you haven't been offensive. I can just counter some of what you say with personal experience. My member has never been injured, despite not having the foreskin. It's easy to clean, it works, it feels good when it's supposed to, the ladies seem to prefer it this way, etc.

I have zero recollection of when I was circumcised, so there's no emotional trauma, which I expect there would be if it were done later in life. That's one reason it is performed on newborns, so they won't remember it. It also heals easier than older people, too.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I wasn't going to go there, but I agree it looks better circ. Every woman I've asked about it also said they prefer circ.

That is true. I mean I know its an awkward topic but thats what I have heard that to. And they have also said its better.... "sexually" for them. How they mean that I won't ask.

 

[Tetra]

Ah I see. I take it its because it was done to you? If so the I now understand better why you are emotional about it. Whatever the case I am truly sorry then because obviously your upset about it for more personal reasons.

No, I'm intact, but I'm super passionate about individual rights, and because I feel that this is in that realm, I get riled up easily.

 

[RaymondG]

I know how to settle this. I want to see one man who was cut say that they wish they weren't or that they wish they waited till they were older? I've heard someone already say they they would of had less problems if they were cut at birth. I just need to see one cut person who regretted it......Just one!

 

[faroukfarouk]

I would oppose piercing the ears of children without their consent. A consent which would become effectively possible around age 7.

This would make potential criminals of hundreds of millions of Hispanic families across the Americas, if implemented: baby girls are routinely given earrings by maternity nurses in Hispanic countries; and in turn hundreds of millions of Hispanic people would regard this as an example of American racism and intolerant cultural imperialism.

 

[faroukfarouk]

There were several instructions given by God in the OT to help the ancient peoples distinguish themselves from the surrounding societies, a lot of that stuff gets cherry picked when it is the old covenant and not part of the new covenant. Humanity has been developing for thousands of years, and to be honest there are other things in the OT that seem a lot more messed up than circumcision. A big emphasis throughout the Bible has been to help humans let go of the physical and embrace the spiritual, and some of the methods God used with the ancient peoples may seem pretty extreme to us, but were not extreme to them.

I personally would not have a son of mine circumcised because the new covenant clearly says it is no longer important, just like my children could wear mixed types of linens and so on.

As far as why it is still so commonly practiced, I think it's one of those, "We've always done it this way," sort of things, where people don't really think about it, and then they don't want to think about it, either. I mean you have to consider that most parents love their children fiercely, even though no parents are perfect, so if you try to convince a parent that they mutilated their children when they were not even religious or it wasn't required by God even if they were religious, well that is quite the emotional uphill battle. I'm not condoning it, but I am saying that I understand it. It's not like most parents have a male infant and are like yeah let's mutilate our son, it's not like that in their hearts and minds, and then they are scared to death of the idea because they love their children so much; this is imperfect human love, but it is a strong form of love none the less and blinds people to reason.

So just as Jesus set the example for us, the best approach is compassion and empathy, understanding that most parents do not mean any harm to their children, most parents are overwhelmed and in a whirlwind when having their babies and for the most part are relying heavily on medical staff for a sense of direction (and many parents experience much fear of getting things wrong, many lose a lot of sleep during the night just worrying about their new infants and checking on them), and then from that same love many parents are scared to death to consider that they may have done anything harmful, so people don't want to think about it and thus it doesn't change.

If we judge (and we ought not, lest we be judged) instead, and come at people like, "You mutilated your child, how could you?!" then people will just shut down even more.

It all reminds me of how some people also want to busybody hundreds of millions of people of Hispanic background into being dubbed criminals for giving earrings to infant girls, a deep-seated custom in maternity hospitals throughout Latin America. These advocates would themselves likely be regarded by hundreds of millions of Hispanic people as intolerant cultural imperialists and racists.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

..

 

[faroukfarouk]

Well, I am a bit of a cultural imperialist.

Now you understand why so many Latin Americans supported Fidel Castro, without them being remotely Marxist, because they in none of their waking moments could endure any form of imperialism.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Now you understand why so many Latin Americans supported Fidel Castro, without them being remotely Marxist, because they in none of their waking moments could endure any form of imperialism.

Note that my remark was made in jest. At any rate we are drifting bit offtopic, so let us return to circumcision.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Note that my remark was made in jest. At any rate we are drifting bit offtopic, so let us return to circumcision.

We can back off Castro, but I was putting it in its context of being perceived by hundreds of millions of people as intolerant moralizing imperialists.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I just need to see one cut person who regretted it......Just one!

Thats a goods point. Come to think of it I don't think I've seen a man who did it later one say he regretted it. Aside from the complications of course. But there are complications with anything you do to your body.

Looking around now I see a few people online who regret it. One says he has less sensation. Most regret it not for any problem, but because of self regret for no real reason other then just not liking it.

I did see someone a few years ago say when its removed it removes about 10,000 super sensitive nerves. And that not having the skin leaves you open to STDs, especially HIV. But not sure if its true or not. Never seen it mentioned anywhere else. Especially since everyone says the feelings during sex get better, not worse.

Then again some of the complains could just be because they were cut poorly as an adult. Surgical accidents happen more often then we would like to know. Just like when they removed the stone from my urethra tube from my bladder to my kidney. They never really have issues I was told. And yet the screwed up and destroyed my tube, which is why my kidney is in a state of necrosis and only about 5% of it is visible since it shrunk that much.

So like I said accidents happen. With all that said if it became a law that cutting was illegal because of proof its dangerous. Then I'd listen. Until then theres no right or wrong answer. Just personal choice. Now even though I am for it, not sure if my wife will want it done to/if we have a son.

 

[RaymondG]

Thats a goods point. Come to think of it I don't think I've seen a man who did it later one say he regretted it. Aside from the complications of course. But there are complications with anything you do to your body.

Looking around now I see a few people online who regret it. One says he has less sensation. Most regret it not for any problem, but because of self regret for no real reason other then just not liking it.

I did see someone a few years ago say when its removed it removes about 10,000 super sensitive nerves. And that not having the skin leaves you open to STDs, especially HIV. But not sure if its true or not. Never seen it mentioned anywhere else. Especially since everyone says the feelings during sex get better, not worse.

Then again some of the complains could just be because they were cut poorly as an adult. Surgical accidents happen more often then we would like to know. Just like when they removed the stone from my urethra tube from my bladder to my kidney. They never really have issues I was told. And yet the screwed up and destroyed my tube, which is why my kidney is in a state of necrosis and only about 5% of it is visible since it shrunk that much.

So like I said accidents happen. With all that said if it became a law that cutting was illegal because of proof its dangerous. Then I'd listen. Until then theres no right or wrong answer. Just personal choice. Now even though I am for it, not sure if my wife will want it done to/if we have a son.

No, I don't mean as an adult.......I think I would regret it if I had it done as an adult....for the pain alone......you'd have to stay indoors for two weeks just to avoid seeing a hot girl that could possibly make "it move" before being healed.

I'm talking about a person who had it done as a baby who wish their parents had given them a choice.....who wish the skin was still left there. If I could hear that from one person I would understand and maybe even agree with the OP

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Basically, for the ancient Jews, circumcision was a ritual "sign" of their having entered a covenant with God that separated them from the surrounding nations. --"the uncircumcized." The point of it being was that it represented the personal "cutting away" of one's sin from one's life in the effort to be holy before the face of God. Otherwise, you're right.

But, now that Christ has come into the world, being circumcized or not is all superfluous when it comes to being right with God.