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Circular rhetoric

Katie4

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Rather than just accepting what I've been told by my atheistic family, I thought I'd put this to people who might be able to give me a different answer:

Question: Why do christians follow god?
Supposed answer: Because the bible tells them to.
Question: Why do christians obey the bible?
Supposed answer: Because it claims to be the word of god.
That can't possibly be the end of it... can it?
 

Bear.Fr00t

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It would be better to say that the Bible reveals God to the Christian, and the Christian follows and believes what the Bible says because God reveals himself through the Word. Contrary to the primary atheist belief that Christians cannot "think for themselves" and "blindly follow the Bible" although it is "a bunch of fairy tales", Christians are perfectly capable of thinking clearly. It is a super natural act of God that reveals the Truth to Christians, that is why we believe. There are man Christians with doctorate degrees, and believe it or not, many highly respected Christian scientist.
 
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elman

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Rather than just accepting what I've been told by my atheistic family, I thought I'd put this to people who might be able to give me a different answer:

Question: Why do christians follow god?
Supposed answer: Because the bible tells them to.


Your supposed answer is not the answer. There were Christians before the Bible existed. I think the answer is about God being a loving Creator--deserving of our loving response to His love.​
 
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AlexBP

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Rather than just accepting what I've been told by my atheistic family, I thought I'd put this to people who might be able to give me a different answer:

Question: Why do christians follow god?
Supposed answer: Because the bible tells them to.
Question: Why do christians obey the bible?
Supposed answer: Because it claims to be the word of god.
That can't possibly be the end of it... can it?
I've never met any Christian who gives those supposed answers to those questions. We Christians know God personally, and because of what God says to us and does for us, we follow Him. To the extent that we obey the Bible it is because we have found that it is justified to do so.
 
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paul1149

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Question: Why do christians follow god?
Supposed answer: Because the bible tells them to.
Question: Why do christians obey the bible?
Supposed answer: Because it claims to be the word of god.

The first answer is way off. I follow God because I found that I need Him in my heart. The Bible points the way, encourages and warns, but that spiritual need is hard-wired into all of us. If it weren't, using the Bible would be a mere intellectual exercise (as indeed it is for some, unfortunately).

The Bible reveals God's true nature to me. I had so many misconceptions, due to cultural, religious and familial lies. But the Bible shone true Light on them and showed them to be the reasonings of man. I saw God's holiness, which any sinner should fear, and His amazing love, which superabundantly puts the fears to rest.

The second answer need tweaking. I obey the Bible not because of its claims, but because it resonates in my spirit as truth, and because I want to please the God who loves me, and whom I love in return.

I'm delighted you're question what you've been told. I did, and that's how I got where I am.
 
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aiki

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Rather than just accepting what I've been told by my atheistic family, I thought I'd put this to people who might be able to give me a different answer:

Question: Why do christians follow god?
Supposed answer: Because the bible tells them to.
Question: Why do christians obey the bible?
Supposed answer: Because it claims to be the word of god.
That can't possibly be the end of it... can it?
No. The Bible has over the years been studied, and doubted, and challenged and yet has been found to be what it claims to be: the Word of God.

Here are some of the reasons why the Bible ought to be recognized as the Word of God:

1. Historical/archaeological/cultural accuracy.
2. Incredible thematic unity despite being written over 1500 years by 40 different people on 3 different continents in 3 different languages.
3. Survivability and popularity.
4. Fulfilled prophecy.
5. Profound impact upon societies and cultures.

No Christian has to resort to the circular argument you describe above. Those who believe the Bible is the Word of God have strong, reasoned bases for doing so beyond the mere claim that the Bible is God's Word.

Selah.
 
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bling

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The reason why we “follow” (obey) God is because He first Loved us and through a huge sacrifice forgave our sins, relieved our burden, and provided us with the indwelling Holy Spirit. If you Love you will obey.

We have freely accepted this huge unconditional gift of Love from God.

The Bible was not even around the first 200 years after Christianity had been established.
 
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aiki

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The Bible was not even around the first 200 years after Christianity had been established.

Just FYI: The Bible as it is today was not in circulation during the first two centuries following Christ's ascension, but the apostle's letters, and gospels and the Hebrew OT were in existence and circulated among early Christians during this period. Of course, the apostles themselves and others who had met Christ face-to-face were also in relative abundance during the short span of time between Christ's departure to heaven and the writing of the gospels and epistles of the NT so there was no lack of the information communicated to us in Scripture.

Selah.
 
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elman

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Just FYI: The Bible as it is today was not in circulation during the first two centuries following Christ's ascension, but the apostle's letters, and gospels and the Hebrew OT were in existence and circulated among early Christians during this period. Of course, the apostles themselves and others who had met Christ face-to-face were also in relative abundance during the short span of time between Christ's departure to heaven and the writing of the gospels and epistles of the NT so there was no lack of the information communicated to us in Scripture.

Selah.
The first writing may have been about 50 AD so for those years the Bible was not around. For the first fifteen hundred years most people could not read and most people who could read did not have access to a Bible.
 
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aiki

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The first writing may have been about 50 AD so for those years the Bible was not around. For the first fifteen hundred years most people could not read and most people who could read did not have access to a Bible.
I think you need to re-read my post. Your shallow approach to Scripture seems to be the same approach you're giving my post.

Selah.
 
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drich0150

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Rather than just accepting what I've been told by my atheistic family, I thought I'd put this to people who might be able to give me a different answer:
Good for you

Question: Why do christians follow god?
Because God has revealed Himself worth to be followed by the believer.

Supposed answer: Because the bible tells them to.
The bible is where belief begins, but it is not limited to what the bible says.

Question: Why do christians obey the bible?
What makes you think that they do completely?

Supposed answer: Because it claims to be the word of god.
It does.

That can't possibly be the end of it... can it?
There is a large element your questions do not account for.
 
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Exial

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And this contributes to the thread how? This benefits our OP how?

It demonstrates that all religious beleivers use the same kind of circular reasoning to justify their beliefs.

Why are you a Muslim?
Muslim: Because the Quran is the word of God.
How do you know?
Muslim: Because it says so in the Quran
Isn't that just circular reasoning?
Muslim: No because I have also spoken to God in my prayers.

So raze, can you see from an atheistic standpoint how hard it is to determine truth from the different religious followers? Since all can claim this kind of justification it makes it rather useless in my opinion. Therefore we must have objective evidence to settle the matter.

OTOH, I could point out how you just violated the rules ... have you not noticed them?

If you enjoy doing that kind of thing, go ahead.
 
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aiki

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There hasn't been anything said in this thread that could not be claimed by another follower of a different religion.

Claimed and proved are not the same thing. The Bible has successfully withstood intense scrutiny for many centuries. It has, IMO, proved itself to be what it claims to be. I gave a short list of evidences for the claim the Bible makes for its divine origin in an earlier post. Now, you may not be willing to accept that these evidences are legitimate or convincing to you, but that doesn't mean there is therefore no evidence at all for believing the Bible is the Word of God. It simply means that what evidence there is you refuse to accept. This is a different circumstance than the circular argument the OPer offered where nothing but the claim to divine inspiration is the basis for proving that claim.

Selah.
 
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Exial

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Claimed and proved are not the same thing. The Bible has successfully withstood intense scrutiny for many centuries. It has, IMO, proved itself to be what it claims to be. I gave a short list of evidences for the claim the Bible makes for its divine origin in an earlier post. Now, you may not be willing to accept that these evidences are legitimate or convincing to you, but that doesn't mean there is therefore no evidence at all for believing the Bible is the Word of God. It simply means that what evidence there is you refuse to accept. This is a different circumstance than the circular argument the OPer offered where nothing but the claim to divine inspiration is the basis for proving that claim.

Selah.

I've read your list and none of your evidence for the veracity of the Bible is reasonable or objective. The difference bewteen you and I is that I am only willing to accept a higher standard of evidence when determining truth in religion and its metaphysical claims. If I were to accept your standard then I would also have to accept the validity of other religious texts as they pass your standard of evidence.

You can only tell me the Bible is true, you cannot show me. And if you wouldn't mind providing just one piece of objective evidence that the Bible is true that doesn't come from the Bible.
 
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aiki

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I've read your list and none of your evidence for the veracity of the Bible is reasonable or objective.

I disagree. Please demonstrate how the list I gave is not reasonable nor objective.

The difference bewteen you and I is that I am only willing to accept a higher standard of evidence when determining truth in religion and its metaphysical claims.

No, I think you have a different standard from mine, but not a higher one.

If I were to accept your standard then I would also have to accept the validity of other religious texts as they pass your standard of evidence.

Oh? You sure about that? Please show me another religious text that can boast over 100 fulfilled prophecies of the specific kind contained in the Bible. Please show me a religious text whose formation is of a kind with the Bible and yet remains unified in its themes.

You can only tell me the Bible is true, you cannot show me.

Not so. I have shown you evidence in favor of the Bible's claims. Your unwillingness to accept that evidence doesn't automatically negate it (as much as you would like it to).

And if you wouldn't mind providing just one piece of objective evidence that the Bible is true that doesn't come from the Bible.

All the evidence I have already provided is objective. Are you sure you understand what "objective" means?

Selah.
 
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DerSchweik

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Rather than just accepting what I've been told by my atheistic family, I thought I'd put this to people who might be able to give me a different answer:

Question: Why do christians follow god?
Supposed answer: Because the bible tells them to.
Question: Why do christians obey the bible?
Supposed answer: Because it claims to be the word of god.
That can't possibly be the end of it... can it?
I'll do my best to give you what I think are reasonable answers - if only because they're mine :)

Why do I follow God? The short answer is because I love Him. I love Him for who He is and for how much He loves me.

At this point it's probably good to pause and provide some background. First I suppose is the need to address the obvious question - 'how do I know He is?' Truth be told, I don't "know" He is - but I believe He is - for a variety of reasons. I look at the world around me and believe it could only be created by God. I see it all, the mountains, lakes, rivers, flowers, forests, the oceans, the sky, the stars above and believe they are all point to Him. Do I have the sort of proof that passes the rigorous test used by some (that somehow "proves" to them He doesn't exist)? No. Another reason is that He answers prayer - not circumstantially, but obviously, and in such a way I "know" the answer was His. Can I prove it to some skeptic or inquiring mind? No.

Another reason deals with my nature - my propensity to "sin" or do wrong in ways peculiar to me, my person. I see in me certain weaknesses and of such a heinous nature that I am appalled at what things I can do, have done. Frankly, I see similar things in all people - propensities to various forms of evil: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these (the list is long). I see in me weaknesses in some of these areas and it appalls me; it shames me. I realize not everyone feels that way about their own weaknesses - for whatever reason, whether they've rationalized it away as "normal" to the human condition or whether they've accepted it - embraced it even. I couldn't. I can't. I don't like those things and want desperately to be rid of those things. He provided a way out.

Which leads to my next "reason" or "proof" why I believe He is. I started reading the bible and was shocked how incisive it was, how it could seemingly pierce my very soul and point out what I knew to be true about me. If anyone wants "proof" the bible is true, I recommend they give it an honest read - we are the proof it's real, it's true. We are the gauge of its veracity - for only we know the true "me" that's inside; and if the bible proves to me it knows too, by pointing out to me what I know to be true about me, what no one else knows to be true about me - or can know - then I have to give it at least some respect. Moreover, if it is capable of knowing the thoughts and intentions of my heart (stuff only I know), then I have to assume other stuff it says is probably credible as well.

I said I love God - and here is why. Being honest about who I really am, about what's really going on in my mind and heart, then reading about this Jesus - how God, through Him sought to reconcile me to Him by not counting any of that trash in my mind and heart against me - well, that drew me, draws me to Him. I read the narrative about Jesus, what He said, what He did - that He did it ostensibly on my behalf, for my sake, that rather than judge me for who and what I was, He refused to hold it against me - indeed, He paid the price Himself rather than make me pay it - for which I'm grateful; because if I had to pay the price for who and what I am, I'd be forever paying it.

And it's more than the fact that He took all my trash upon Himself. That He did it is one thing; that He died in the process another thing altogether. But even that wasn't the kicker for me - I believe God did indeed raise Him from the dead - which means His death wsn't the end of it, rather it was just the beginning. That He put to death the death that was in me - and survived it - moreover that He provided a way for me to participate in the same death, burial, and resurrection is what ultimately threw me down on my knees before Him - in gratitude, in hope, in reverence.

To your second question - "why do we obey the bible?" Well, if "obeying" what I'd been obeying prior to my salvation was doing nothing more for me than proving my need for that salvation, then obeying just the opposite has a contrasting value of equal or greater measure. I obey it because I want to, because I know what the consequences of disobedience are - consequences over which I no longer need to fret. I strive to keep His commandments because I love Him. And no, that's "not the end of it" -- in truth, it's just the beginning.

Hope that helps... :thumbsup:
 
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