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Churches without elders

JDIBe

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I've attended churches (coC) with all sorts of situations, some with Elders, some without, some with the Preacher as an Elder, some (most) without.

I agree with most of the statements in this thread. If a church has not reached a growth stage where there are qualified men (as in the very earliest churches in Acts) then it is better to have no Elders than unqualified ones. However, it is difficult to grow in a positive way without men of vision responsible for oversight of the congregation.

I once attended a church where the Minister believed and taught that the qualifications for an Elder were simply "general, suggested, optional attributes". I personally disagree, and would add the quality "thick-skinned" to the list as well. I sometimes look at our Elders here with a sense of admiration as well as pity. :)

I used to know a very nice lady from the Disciples of Christ at a former job. She came into my office one day and told me her church had selected either her or her husband to be an Elder at their church. They told her "either one of you would do". I kind of had to smile at the differences between how we do things among the branches in the RM sometimes.
 
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SoulFly51

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Personally -

While I wouldn't want to attend a church where they don't take an elders qualifications seriously enough...

I'd not find comfort in the realisation that noone in my church was qualified.

Yeah ... according to most people Jesus wasn't qualified either, so they shouldn't feel bad.

That fact makes me question whether those were "qualifications" or "characteristics."

I tend to lean toward the latter.
 
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Yeah ... according to most people Jesus wasn't qualified either, so they shouldn't feel bad.

That fact makes me question whether those were "qualifications" or "characteristics."

I tend to lean toward the latter.

I would agree. Timothy did not qualify.
 
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SoulFly51

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I thought we always leaned towards the Scriptures.

Of course we do. Now ... consider this.

These "qualifications" they're speaking of come from lists found in 1 Timothy and Titus.

Look at this:

Titus 1:5-14
5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.
6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
7 Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless-- not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.
8 Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined.
9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
10 For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group.
11 They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach-- and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
12 Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons."
13 This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith
14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth.
(NIV)


Here's a list:
1) Blamless
2) Husband of one wife
3) Children must be obedient
4) Not overbearing
5) Not quick-tempered
6) Not a drunkard
7) Not violent
8) Honest
9) Hospitable
10) Loves what is good.
11) Self-Controlled
12) Morally upright
13) Holy
14) Disciplined

Paul goes on to say that these men must be able to refute doctrine that is unsound. The book of Titus was written to the church on the small island of Crete, and at the time of the writing the Cretan church had a big problem with false teachers attempting to infilitrate their ranks and spread false teaching.

Paul lays out these characteristics as those that should be found in that church's eldership because that was the problem that needed to be addressed.

Now, look at Timothy:

1 Timothy 3:1-7
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task.
2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect.
5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?)
6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.
7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
(NIV)


1) Above reproach
2) Husband of one wife
3) Temperate
4) Self-Controlled
5) Respectable
6) Hospitable
7) Able to teach
8) Not a drunkard
9) Not violent
10) Gentle
11) Not quarrelsome
12) Not a lover of money
13) Must manage his family well
14) Obedient children
15) Not a new convert
16) Must have a good reputation with outsiders

Alright - there's the list from Timothy.

I need to point out that Paul wrote this letter to Timothy while Timothy was working in Ephesus. The letter of 1 Timothy never made it into the hands of the church in Crete, and the letter sent to Titus never made it into the hands of the church in Ephesus.

That is very important to understand, because many today work off of the assumption that these two different lists should be combined to form one comprehensive list to use in the process of elder selection.

Let me ask you a couple of questions. If these lists Paul wrote down were the requirements of elders, don't you think that it would be important to send the same list to each congegation (if they indeed were requirements)?

Don't you find it a little bit odd that Paul cites different qualifications for different congregations (if these are indeed qualifications)?

And if these are suppossed to be comprehensive "lists of the qualifications of an elder", don't you think that a lot is missing?

What about elders who pray? What about elders who can actually lead?

It seems to me that if these are THE qualifications of an elder the list would certainly be longer.

After much study and prayer, I have come to the conclusion that these are characteristics, not qualifications.

Of course, I am keeping an open mind to the subject, and this is just my opinion. :)
 
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Berean522

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Either way, I think it is sad commentary on our day that we cannot find elders for each and every congregation of our church. One church plant in our area has roughly 160/180 in attendance and no qualified elders.

Our youth minister was publicly scolded in a men's meeting at our last church for suggesting a "Training in Godliness" Program which is basically a one-on-one Accountability/Discipleship Program with the men. What is going on in the World?
 
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- DRA -

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I've attended churches (coC) with all sorts of situations, some with Elders, some without, some with the Preacher as an Elder, some (most) without.

I agree with most of the statements in this thread. If a church has not reached a growth stage where there are qualified men (as in the very earliest churches in Acts) then it is better to have no Elders than unqualified ones. However, it is difficult to grow in a positive way without men of vision responsible for oversight of the congregation.

I once attended a church where the Minister believed and taught that the qualifications for an Elder were simply "general, suggested, optional attributes". I personally disagree, and would add the quality "thick-skinned" to the list as well. I sometimes look at our Elders here with a sense of admiration as well as pity. :)

I used to know a very nice lady from the Disciples of Christ at a former job. She came into my office one day and told me her church had selected either her or her husband to be an Elder at their church. They told her "either one of you would do". I kind of had to smile at the differences between how we do things among the branches in the RM sometimes.

All smiling aside, that "thick-skinned" comment struck a nerve ... as did the comment about "admiration as well as pity." Not in bad ways, but just as reminders.

You know, elders expect opposition from the enemies of God that confront the church. As shepherds, elders understand they stand between danger and the flock. But, what's especially discouraging ... and painful ... are the "fiery darts" that come from behind. Those are the ones that hurt the most.
 
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