• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

churches of Christ: no consubstantiation but "pneumatic presence" ?

Discussion in 'No Creed But Christ - Restoration Movement' started by kybela, Sep 12, 2019.

  1. kybela

    kybela New Member

    Lord's supper: bread and wine are purely symbolic and memorial in character
    There is no Real Presence, no transubstantiation or consubstantiation.
    But cause they a "pneumatic presence" or "spiritual feeding" ?
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

    United States
    I believe you already answered your question.

    "Pneumatic Presence", if I remember correctly, is the same thing as saying there is a "Real Presence".

    However, you already stated that you know there is no "real presence". You would be correct to say ONE of the reasons is "spiritual feeding".

    To quote Melvin J. Wise:

    1. It is a memorial service. “This do in remembrance of me.” (Luke22:19)

    Memorials are natural, common, and universal. The savage and the civilized, the ignorant and the learned, the poor and the rich, all the relics and memorials.

    America has her Independence Day and Memorial Day. Other countries have their days peculiar to their national history. Every tombstone in every cemetary is a monument to two facts: First, that somebody lived and was loved; and, second, that somebody has died and is lovingly remembered.

    So is the Lord’s Supper a monument, a memorial service. Those who partake have their minds carried back to that awful night in Gethsemane, to the cruel mob, to the next morning as Jesus stood before Pilate and Herod, to the nails that pierced His hands and feet, to the spear that pierced His side, and to the blood that was shed for you and me.

    2. It is a proclamation. (I Cor.11:26)

    Not everyone can be an oral proclaimer of the gospel; but every man, woman, boy or girl in the church can preach a sermon in the act of observing the Lord’s Supper. “Actions speak louder than words” is an adage that is everlastingly true. No sermon from the pulpit on this subject, however eloquent it may be, can speak as effectively as the whole congregation in joint participation, when solemnly, faithfully, and discerningly observing this sacred meal.

    3. It is a means of spiritual nourishment. (John6:53-56)

    Some of the greatest gifts from God to man are the blessings of physical and spiritual life; but both are dependent upon certain conditions. If we would live physically we must have proper food, exercise, sunshine and air. Let a man shut himself away from all light, food, air, and exercise and he will die physically. We cannot hibernate as the animals do. Neither can we hibernate spiritually. Jesus said: “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.” (John6:53) In this Jesus might have had in mind more than the Lord’s Supper, but we do know that He included it in this statement, for the bread is emblematic of His body and the fruit of the vine is emblematic of His blood (Matt.26:26-28). Some will forsake the Lord’s Supper for months and months and still claim to have good spiritual health in Christ. Jesus said: “I am the vine, ye are the branches.” (John15:5) The branches draw their life from the vine, and if they are cut off from the vine they will wither and die. It was the dying request of our Redeemer that we do this in remembrance of Him (Luke22:19); and Paul urges that we not forsake it. (Heb.10:25)
    End quote

    I hope this helps!
  3. kybela

    kybela New Member

    Thank you :)

    1) Buildings (usually?) don't display a cross: but there is no problem to wear a cross or to display in a building?

    2) every congregation subscribes to the doctrine of the Trinity?
  4. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

    United States
    While I see no scripture that states anything against wearing a necklace or having a t-shirt with the cross on it, you would probably find that many just avoid it altogether.

    As to why it is avoided, the answer is simple- there is no direction by God for the use of religious symbols to adorn meeting places. The symbols that we do have are the Lord's Supper (I Corinthians 11:23-29) and baptism (Romans 6:3-7). Our preachers do not carry special titles to distinguish themselves (Matthew 23:6-12), nor do they wear special clothing to set them apart (Matthew 23:5). For the same reason the members do wear jewelry or items to say "See, here is a Christian." We want to be noticed for who we are, not by what we claim to be (John 5:44; I Peter 3:3-7).

    Perhaps in the days when illiteracy was great, a need for some icon to mark a place of worship was necessary, but people have a tendency to place significance on man-made symbols. A good example of this was the bronze serpent made by Moses to allow a cure from snake bites (Numbers 21:9). Moses made it at the direction of God and it served its purpose. But centuries later people made an idol out of that same bronze serpent (II Kings 18:4). We see this same tendency today. People treat crosses and other religious symbols as good luck pieces. In some religions people kneel before crosses to offer prayers. Knowing what people tend to do, we choose to avoid the issue.

    Still, I don't see any scripture against it.

    As far as putting it on the building, many don't, but at times this is difficult to do. For instance, most communion trays available for purchase come with crosses on top. Fortunately most are attached with a screw, so we run down to the local hardware store and find a nice knob to use in its place. I've been told once before about a small church that had a cross on its podium. It was given to the congregation and they couldn't afford a replacement, so they put up with it for several years.

    In the handful of churches of Christ I have gathered together with in even different states from west to east, I don't know of any yet that have a different view of the trinity.

    Though it is important to understand that the "church of Christ" is not a trademarked name, and even ones that have fell away will still carry that name, the ones I know about all hold the same view.

    Also of special note, the actual word trinity is nowhere to be found in scripture. However, we use that word we use to convey that we know about and believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit as 3 in 1.
  5. notreligus

    notreligus Member Supporter

    "Though not officially recognized as distinct movements until 1906, the separation of the Churches of Christ and the Christian Churches had been taking place gradually for decades." Though not officially recognized as distinct movements until 1906, the separation of the Churches of Christ and the Christian Churches had been taking place gradually for decades. " The Churches of Christ were formally listed as a separate denomination as of the 1906 United States Census.
    Churches of Christ - Wikipedia

    Barton Stone, the leader of the Stoneites who joined with the Campbellites to form the Stone-Campbell Movement in 1832, was known to be a Unitarian. I'd say that the influence of his beliefs about the Trinity varies by congegation and individual members.