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Church structure

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No Swansong

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I am an Anglican (I attend St. John's Church) and I am a member of the Church Society and I can in good conscience sign up to the Thirty Nine Articles however that said I believe that the Elizabethan Establishment was only a temporary thing and the English Reformation died a death after its leaders were executed by Mary. So whilst I adore the CofE and her Liturgy, Homilies and Articles it is my prayer to see her Presbyterianized. Hence my custom title "Presbyterian with a Prayer Book". :)
Actually that's what they use to call those in the Reformed Episcopal Church "Prayerbook, Presbyterians".
 
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JM

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Acts 15 on the Dividing Line

Today I started off with about half an hour or so on the subject of Acts 15, the "Jerusalem Council," issues relating to Peter's role, and to the relevance of the text to church government (i.e., Reformed Baptist/Presbyterian discussions, such as the one I had with Robert Reymond). Then we took calls. Here's the program.
www.aomin.org
 
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Iosias

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I must say that I found this highly unconvincing.

On Acts 15 Dr. Thomas Witherow said correctly that,

Every candid man must admit that this is a fair representation of all facts bearing on the subject, as put before us in the fifteenth and sixteenth chapters of the Acts. Let it be remarked that, in the simple narrative, the following facts stand noticeably out:—(1) That Barnabas and Paul had a dispute about circumcision with certain false teachers who came down from Judea; (2) This dispute was not fettled in the Church of Antioch where it originated; (3) The matter was referred to an external ecclesiastical assembly consisting of the apostles and elders at Jerusalem; (4) This assembly met publicly to deliberate on the question; (5) They pronounced a decision; (6) To this decision the Church of Antioch and the Churches of Syria and Cilicia yielded submission...Our fifth principle, therefore, may be summed up in these terms—THE PRIVILEGE OF APPEAL TO THE ASSEMBLY OF ELDERS, AND THE RIGHT OF GOVERNMENT EXERCISED BT THEM IN THEIR CORPORATE CHARACTER.

So again I would suggest: http://www.apuritansmind.com/WCF/WitherowThomasApostolicChurchWhich.htm#THE FIFTH PRINCIPLE.
 
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JM

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JM

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Perhaps you could tell me why did you find him unconvincing? And we can go from there...

PS: if you join the GO I'll be sending the SAS. ;)

For the reason John Owen has stated in the past and the reasons Dr. White has given the other day.

What is SAS? [Super Arminian ?????]


^_^
 
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Iosias

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JM

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A "moderate Presbyterian" that works for me. I don't have the time to read the book or read most of the links posted, but it's probably the author's view and not fact. Most of the information about Owen indicates he was a independent congregationalist.

http://www.answers.com/topic/john-owen

http://www.puritansermons.com/bio/bioowen.htm

As for his re-presby affirmation before his death, I don't buy it, and if you read Owen you'll find close to the end he doubted more then a few things...assurance of his own salvation being the main one.

Peace,

jm
PS: Thank God he a lot when he was young! http://www.johnowen.org/media/beeke_owen_on_assurance.pdf
 
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Iosias

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A "moderate Presbyterian" that works for me.

"There were principles, however, retained by Owen, both on the subject of the ruling elder and of synods,--as we shall have ccasion to show in noticing some of his later writings,--which prove that his Congregationalism was of a somewhat modified character, and which a moderate Presbyterian of our own times, though not vaunting as identical with his views, would yet hail as vidence that the gulf between himself and the Congregationalist is not impassable." Source.

"Although he was thus formally united to Presbyterianism, Owen's views were originally inclined to those of the Independents, and, as he acquainted himself more fully with the controversy, he became more resolved in that direction, though later he would return to Presbyterianism (as seen in his writings)...His most important work was his Treatise on Evangelical Churches in which were contained his latest views regarding church government." Source.

I have also seen Owen condemning democracy with relish.
 
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JM

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JM,

1. Would you say that churches should or should not work together?
2. What should happen when there are controversies of faith?
3. Do you accept the early Councils of the Church?



[1]Yes, [2]following congregational church polity we would "take it to the church," and [3]that depends.

Now, in opposition to all these, the Baptists hold that the New Testament church is a particular congregation and not an organized denomination. According to the New Testament: “In Christ, each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord.” Each congregation is a complete temple in itself, and has final jurisdiction over all its affairs. This is the church, to which grievances must be told, and whose decision is final. (Matthew 18:15-18.) The most forceful and popular objection urged against this idea of the church is that it will be powerless to secure unity of faith, uniformity of discipline, and co-operation in general work among the churches. This objection comes from the viewpoint of human reason. And we frankly admit that whatever theory of the church fails necessarily and generally to secure these great ends discounts itself in probability as scriptural in favor of any other theory which does secure these great ends, simply because we cannot conceive of God’s wisdom failing. On this account, once in the Northern States of our Union, and more recently in the Southern States, there have been tendencies among Baptists which if they had been successful and followed to their logical consequences would have resulted in this idea of the church:

(d) A federation, like the United States. In this the representative system prevails. Each state selects its representatives, delegates powers to them, projects its sovereignty into the general body, and there merges it into a supreme government for national affairs. These mistaken brethren, North and South, started out with the contention that a Baptist general body, whether district association, state convention or national convention, must be composed of churches alone, represented by delegates having delegated powers. But a Baptist church cannot project or merge its sovereignty into a general body of any kind, nor delegate its powers. There is not and cannot be a Baptist federal body. Read again Dr. Wayland’s great book, “The Principles and Practices of the Baptists,” and there see how the unscriptural idea perished before the wisdom of the brethren. As the good doctor says, “we now wonder that anybody ever supposed that there could be a representative Baptist general body.” In like manner, in the South, all attempts to reduce our Southern Baptist Convention or state bodies to this basis have failed for similar good reasons. Our general bodies are purely voluntary, and composed of individuals, not churches. They are solely for counsel and cooperation. They cannot have trials, seeing they possess no ecclesiastical powers. Their sessions have no time for trials, lasting only three or four days. In considering the one question of eligibility for membership in the body they must necessarily act in a summary way on account of time. Their declining to seat any man in no way affects his ecclesiastical status. To ask for regular trial before a Baptist general body, or to claim all the legal forms of procedure in regular courts, whether ecclesiastical or civil, is an absurdity on its face and betrays ignorance of fundamental Baptist principles. It is just upon this point the world, with its graded courts, and other denominations, with their graded courts and regular forms of trial, fail to understand Baptist principles. They look upon any decision of our general bodies touching membership as similar to the decision of their courts and marvel at our lack of regular forms of trial. The average man thinks of the Methodist Conference and of the Presbyterian Assemblies or of the courts of the country, in deciding upon the merits of a decision on membership by a Baptist general body, and wonders why we do not observe the usual forms of regular courts. They fail to see that a Baptist general body, unlike a Methodist Conference or Presbyterian Assembly, is not and cannot be a court, because with Baptists the church is a particular congregation and not an organized denomination. The particular church is a court and does have its regular forms of trial. No Baptist general body could complete one trial, according to forms of law, in ten years, considering the time at its disposal and the multitude and magnitude of legitimate work that must be considered in its short sessions. The supreme question then arises, can we with our ideas of the church secure unity of the faith, guard against hurtful schisms, bring about substantial uniformity of discipline, and, ¾ above all, secure co-operation in the great departments of work beyond the ability of a single church, namely, missions, education, religious literature and philanthropy? It is simply stated as an historical fact, without argument here, that Baptists come nearer to uniformity of faith and discipline and have fewer hurtful schisms than the denominations which seek to secure these results by their iron general organizations. With history before us we are willing to compare results. As to the success of cooperation by our simple methods, we may here in Texas point to a demonstration. Since our session in San Antonio in 1897, which eliminated non-cooperation and obstruction, this State Convention has raised more than a million dollars in cash for education, missions, orphanage, church building and other departments of work. We can find no building that will hold our Convention when assembled. Spiritual power, mighty faith, melting prayer and marvelous unanimity characterize our assemblies. While the world stands this demonstration will avail for justification of our theory of the church. B.H. Carroll. "Baptists and Their Doctrine"
 
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Iosias

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[2]following congregational church polity we would "take it to the church,"

What do you mean by church here? Is it the local congregation or something wider?

Further questions:
1. Is the church democratic?
2. If yes what is the Scriptural support?
3. Is it wrong for a number of congregations to work together on a local evangelistic event?
4. What are the principles we find in Acts 15? I understand that in one sence it was unique but I believe that there are principles we can draw out.

FYI: I would hold a form of the 'moderate' Presbyterianism of the later John Owen which is more akin to Dutch Reformed as opposed to Scottish Presbyterianism. In his Reformed Dogmatics Herman Hoeksema's opening title in the chapter entitled "The Power and the Government of the Church" is subtitled 'The Autonomy of the Local Church'. The content of which is found below:

From the principle of the unity of the church follows her calling to manifest this unity as much as possible in the world. Therefore, the calling of the local congregations is to unite themselves as much as possible in a denominational organization on the basis of their common confession. This denominational unity, however, cannot be imposed upon the local churches from above, but must arise spontaneously and organically from the local congregations themselves. The church is not a worldly association that has its different branches in different places. On the contrary, the local church itself is a manifestation of the body of Christ. It is autonomous. This autonomy of the local congregation the church must never deny or surrender; if she does, she soon will be under the yoke of a hierarchical power.

That the local church is autonomous is evident from Scripture, especially from the book of Acts. The church in Jerusalem was not an association that established various subdivisions in different places – in Antioch, in Asia Minor, and finally in Greece and Rome. On the contrary, the apostles established local congregations that originally were without even any formal or outward connection with one another. These local congregations had their own officebearers and ministry of the word and sacraments, maintained their own government, exercised their own discipline, and took care of their own poor. These churches were, therefore, completely autonomous. But in the nature of the case, and according to the to the principle of their spiritual unity in Christ, these various churches sought to establish communion with one another.

From the communion of various churches arises denominational unity. Such unity and fellowship of autonomous churches with one another have their principle origin in the common life-root and common life of the churches in Christ Jesus their Lord. They seek such fellowship and unity also because they always are being attacked by a common enemy, against whom they must defend themselves in life and doctrine and because of whom they participate in a common tribulation. Their seeking of fellowship and unity is motivated also by the practical need they have of one another; in unity there is strength. They need one another to establish a theological seminary for the training of ministers of the word, to develop their common confession, and to fulfill their mandate to do mission work. It stands to reason that these autonomous churches seek and establish communion with one another based upon their common confession. (Hoeksema, H. Reformed Dogmatics, vol 2, pp265-266)
 
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JM

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Is it the local congregation or something wider?


Both. "CHRIST'S CHURCH CONSISTS OF THE CHOSEN OF GOD, His saints and beloved who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, who are born of God and led by Christ's Spirit, who are in Christ and Christ in them, who hear and believe His word, live in their weakness according to His commandments and in patience and meekness follow in His footsteps, who hate evil and love the good, earnestly desiring to apprehend Christ as they are apprehended of Him." Menno Simons


Is the Church theocratic? and how is it theocractic?
 
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Iosias

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Is the Church theocratic? and how is it theocractic?

So you admit there is no Scriptural evidence for democracy?

Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

The congregation do not elect elders but rather the Holy Ghost appoints them by gifting them to meet the conditions found in Timothy and Titus.

See also:
Acts 14:23 "And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed."

Titus 1:5 "For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:"

Ephesians 4:11 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"
"As to the nature of Church power, it is to be remembered that the Church is a theocracy. Jesus Christ is its head." - Charles Hodge
 
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JM

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So you admit there is no Scriptural evidence for democracy?
Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

The congregation do not elect elders but rather the Holy Ghost appoints them by gifting them to meet the conditions found in Timothy and Titus.

See also:
Acts 14:23 "And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed."

Titus 1:5 "For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:"

Ephesians 4:11 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"
"As to the nature of Church power, it is to be remembered that the Church is a theocracy. Jesus Christ is its head." - Charles Hodge

I believe the Holy Spirit works within the congregation to elect elders and pastors and guides the priest hood of believers. So I admit, God runs the Church theoretically from the congregation. The idea that congregationalism is democratic is not the issue, for ALL forms of Church government rely on democratic principles to install elders, etc.

Christ is the head of the Church with believers as His body.

Although "congregational rule" may seem to suggest that pure democracy reigns in Congregational churches, this is usually not really the case. It is granted, with rare exception, that God has given the government of the Church into the hands of an ordained ministry. What makes Congregationalism unique is its system of checks and balances, which constrains the authority of the minister, the lay officers, and the members.

Finally, the congregational theory strictly forbids ministers from ruling their local churches by themselves. Not only does the minister serve by the approval of the congregation, but in addition committees must be elected, consisting of lay officers and the pastor. It is a contradiction of the Congregational principle if a minister makes decisions concerning the congregation without the vote of these other officers. The other officers may be called "The Board of Deacons", "The Board of Elders" or "The Session" (borrowing Presbyterian terminology), or even "The Vestry" (borrowing the Anglican term) — it is not their label that is important to the theory, but rather their lay status and their equal vote, together with the pastor, in deciding the issues of the church. While other forms of church government are more likely to define "tyranny" as "the imposition of unjust rule", a Congregationalist church would more likely define tyranny as "transgression of liberty" or equivalently, "rule by one man". The reason for insisting upon Congregationalism, besides the belief that it is the Biblical and primitive pattern of Church government, is to prevent any transgression of liberty by those in authority. To a Congregationalist, no abuse of authority is worse than the concentration of all decisive power in the hands of one ruling body, or one person. Following this sentiment, Congregationalism has evolved over time to include even more participation of the congregation, more kinds of lay committees to whom various tasks are apportioned, and more decisions subject to the vote of the entire membership.

Since the era of the “Enlightenment” congregational polity has suffered but this onslaught of individualism has invaded all forms of Church polity which in no way affects the ideal we strive for.


~JM~
 
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Iosias

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I believe the Holy Spirit works within the congregation to elect elders and pastors and guides the priest hood of believers.

The idea that congregationalism is democratic is not the issue, for ALL forms of Church government rely on democratic principles to install elders, etc.

As far as I am concerned the democratic element is a very important issue because no where do we find the Scriptures teach that congregations elected elders, we do not even find it as apostolic practice.

The question is where does authority lie. Does the congregation have the authority or do the elders? Where do the elders obtain their authority, is it from the congregation or God? Who choses the elders, is it the congregation or God?

The keys belong to the ministers not to the church.
 
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JM

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The elders are persons chosen from among the congregation and ordained for this service. Beyond that, practices vary: sometimes elders are elected by the congregation, [2] sometimes appointed by the Session, some denominations ordain elders for life, others have fixed terms, and some churches appoint elders on a rotation from among willing members in good standing in the church.
The minister will usually chair or preside over the Session. All elders have an equal vote in the session.[3] In theory, the minister is not the head of the Session — typically enjoying only a casting vote. In reality though, the minister is often regarded as 'the leader'.
You can find a democratic practice within presbyterian polity as well, so if its wrong in congregationalism, then it's wrong in presbyterianism.
 
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JM

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I answered your questions. One more time then?

Does the congregation have the authority or do the elders?

Yes to both. Elders are called by the congregation of believers who have the law written on their hearts to lead the congregation.

Where do the elders obtain their authority, is it from the congregation or God?
From God thru the congregation of believers...same as the elders of the presbyterian polity.

Who choses the elders, is it the congregation or God?
God does. The congregation is the tool that God uses to install elders.

The keys belong to the ministers not to the church.
You would have to deny the reality of the New Covenant and the priest hood of all believers to limit authority in the Spirit to ministers only.

Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

We see Barnabas and Paul was given an audience. By itself this text means little. Keep reading...

Act 15:22-25 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, [we find agreement between the elders and church] to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed , and Silas, chief men among the brethren: And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders AND brethren [we also see agreement between elders and church] send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Silesia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, [the whole church is still in context] being assembled with one accord, [they all agreed as the context of "apostles, elders and church" is in view] to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

We find the established church with Christ as the head of the body, not a hierarchy.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

We [believers] are the priesthood, who in reality of the New Covenant, have HIS marvellous light. AMEN.

That all said, I'm not a die hard congregationalist and see the merit in presbyterianism. But for now it seems more consistent to understand the New Covenant reality within the life of the church working within the congregation.

~JM~
 
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