Church Out Of Order?

[NoForMe]

I'm having a real struggle to figure out wether or not the church I am attending is out of order or not? I go to a pentecostal church and some things are making me feel wierd. For Example: My pastor spends at least 20 minutes at every service to talk about tithing and that we will recieve if we tithe. It's all about the recieveing end if we give. Why so much emphasis on tithing, The bible says to give and you will recieve, where does it say give expecting to recieve. We are supposed to tell God what we want whwn we tithe (by writing it on the envelope) whats that all about?

Also I believe in praying in the spirit (tongues) But, The bible says that praying in the spirit edifies oneself and gives thanks to the lord. But sometimes while the pastor is leading the church in prayer he will begin to pray in the spirit. Is he edifying himself infront of the entire church? The bible says to edify the church. When is order out of order?

 

[Alternate Carpark]

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

When is it out of order ?
When it doesn't match what God's word says.
Ah yes... the constant going on about tithing...I hope He then talks for 20 minutes about how much God loves you.
And the public speaking of tongues thing...yeah...Paul is pretty straight forward when he talks about that isn't he.

I know what you're going through NoForMe and the deeper issue is not when it's out of order but what do we do when it is.

If you are a child of God and believe that the Holy Spirit will show you and guide to toward truth, then when you ask God about these issues, will He not show you.

Yes he will, if your heart is only concerned about doing what God says.
We are to judge righteously and test all things to see if it matches God's word.

Yes , He will, regardless of your "level" or "age" of spirituality.

If it clearly states something in the Word and something different is being done, then it is wrong, even if millions of people are practicing it.

There is not one church or denom that has is ALL correct.

Why is it that you struggle ?
Doubt that you are correct in what you see as error.
Think you are too young to interpret Scripture correctly.
Logically assume pastors can't be wrong.
Wonder why no one else sees what you see.
Feel that you are being critical and judgemental.

There's probably heaps more hey

Don't forget that we all are capable of walking in error, so we are not to judge the person but the teaching.
I would first off speak to your pastor about what you see, then you can see his heart concerning it.
Then you must remove all doubt from your heart as to what God says is true and then ask God what does he want you to do about this situation.

Don't think you have to go to bible college to be skilled and equipped to hear and follow God.
Look at David's life for example.

Oh yes the balance would be that new Christians do need guidance from more mature Christians, that is the whole concept of Church isn't it.
New Christians feed on milk and when they are older can digest meat.
Sad when the milk they receive is watered down or is artificial milk.
But because you are someone who thinks and sees things already, it means you have gone beyond milk and desire more deeper things from God.

You are walking into a deeper walk with God and as you do God will show you what is of Him and what is not.
It is part of the deeper walk and you will walk with others who are on the same path, you will not be alone.
I'll stop now...hehe..I'm getting all fired up now.

 

[NoForMe]

I definetley Agree, Heres the thing,

I think my pastor is a great guy, but he is not approachable as I see it. He is said openly in church that he is not here to counsel anyone, that he will point them to the bible but he does not want to counsel anyone. Also he spole of a pastor leaving his wife and he said he would kick the **** out of him and not even repent. He makes many off color jokes that I don't agree with even being said. But you are exactly right, What do I do about it not being in order. It's amazing how the lord leads, recently I had the opportunity to talk to and learn of a singer, Jeremy Camps, testimony. It spoke to me and I wanted to know more. And I want to know more and more each day. I Just want to make sure that the holy spirit is speaking through me and not the enemy trying to deter me. I have friends and I am very involved in the video part of church. yes we have video cameras, but we don't do much to reach out to others either. It seems things are way out of order, but am I correct? And what does the bible tell me to do if they are?

 

[Protestant Minister]

Is that all that's wrong?You're extremely lucky you found such a good church!I mean ministers are human and they do error.The reason there are hundreds of denominations is that Christians keep getting offended and running off and starting their own church.You have to do that for the rest of the sabbath day anyway ("remember to keep the sabbath day holy" requires you to engage in religious activites for the full day)so you should be able to tolerate a trained minister's service for an hour before you start your 12 hour worship of God doing it exactly the way you want to conduct your own home church.You could of course look around for another church but I'm certain that you'll find problems with any church you attend.

Your criticism of your miniister does have some validity however.Some ministers even fake the speaking in tongues in public to impress people and convince people that they are godly.At least your minister believes the Holy Spirit is still alive which some ministers don't believe.The heavy emphasis on money is practiced in many churches.I used to attend a church that had a minister who asked people to walk up to the alter and deposit their money while he stood next to them to watch them.Maybe he was afraid some of the congregation would steal money from the offering plate.It's important to remember that churches are businesses with huge operating expenses to pay so yeah,they do need alot of money coming in every week to function.You're lucky you have a minister who believes in God answering our prayer requests;again something that isn't talked much about in many churches.And yes,Jesus did endorse the Old Testament law requiring us to give at least ten percent of our income to charity.(but not necessarily any church)

So there is no question your minister has some faults.So what else is new?Do you know any who don't?That's why we need to worship God and not the church.That's why it's called Christianity and not churchanity.

 

[NoForMe]

I do agree that all to often people are offended and just run away from a church, However; there is a difference between a church that is run in accordnance with God, and One that is not. I agree that in any church there are faults, but those faults sometimes lie in a boring pastor, boring worship, not enough on this or not enough on that. It's when the overall order in a church is not kept that you need to be carefull. The church is to build up your faith. We don't have a growing church because most people are thrown off by the money talk. I do agree in tithing, I don't agree that we need to raise our hand at the beginning of a service and ask for an envelope and write down what God is going to give us since we gave him our money. I don't believe that praying in a tonuge in front of the church is edifying the church, rather is makes new comers wonder what is going on. Aren't we trying to grow in the body of christ? I have to ask is My church being a part of helping the body of christ to grow?

 

[Yitzchak]

My opinion is that it is not really an issue of being out of order. If someone were disrupting the service or things broke down into anarchy then it would be out of order. The words I would give to it are annoying and shallow. But those are just my opinions.

Bottomline. I think that these are non-essential issues. It really depends on the bigger issues as to whether this church is one worth going to.

 

[NoForMe]

And in your opinion is it? I Disagree about them being nothing, because anything that takes away from Jesus Christ is something. Nothing in a church service should take away from that and I think if anyone should practice this, it's the pastor.

 

[Yitzchak]

And in your opinion is it? I Disagree about them being nothing, because anything that takes away from Jesus Christ is something. Nothing in a church service should take away from that and I think if anyone should practice this, it's the pastor.

I don't have enough information as to whether it is worth going to this specific church. It is certainly worth it to go to a christian church. Personally, I would be looking for a different church because the tithing thing would annoy me. My view is that there should be discipling of individual believers in the church by mature believers. The subject of tithing should be addressed in that context. Trying to do that from the pulpit is in bad taste and suggests that there is very poor discipleship going on in that church. If there is a problem in the area of tithing then it should be addressed as part of a more comprehensive discipleship program. I would make an educated guess that the tithe is not the only issue neglected and that the sermons are all along similar lines of trying to disciple from the pulpit.

The thing about the tongues is really just a maturity issue in my view and not an issue of the pastor being a heretic. Perhaps the whole tithing issue is a reflection of the pastor's immaturity as well.

I do consider immaturity in leadership to be a potentially serious issue. Which is why I would be looking for another church. Of course all this is said based on my limited knowledge of the situation. However, as far as church problems go, this is a relatively small one. It could be much worse. And the issues which you described are not essential issues in the sense that it makes the church a cult or apostate. By not essential, I don't mean that they don't matter. Just that a person can attend there and grow as a Christian even with those problems.

 

[Alternate Carpark]

 

[Alternate Carpark]

LOL...was disconnected...

Yeah, what Yitzchak says is very good about the immaturity of leaders, it happens.


1 Cor. 13:1-7
If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but don't love, I'm nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate.
[2] If I speak God's Word with power, revealing all his mysteries and making everything plain as day, and if I have faith that says to a mountain, "Jump," and it jumps, but I don't love, I'm nothing.
[3] If I give everything I own to the poor and even go to the stake to be burned as a martyr, but I don't love, I've gotten nowhere. So, no matter what I say, what I believe, and what I do, I'm bankrupt without love.

[4] Love never gives up.
Love cares more for others than for self.
Love doesn't want what it doesn't have.
Love doesn't strut,
Doesn't have a swelled head,
[5] Doesn't force itself on others,
Isn't always "me first,"
Doesn't fly off the handle,
Doesn't keep score of the sins of others,
[6] Doesn't revel when others grovel,
Takes pleasure in the flowering of truth,
[7] Puts up with anything,
Trusts God always,
Always looks for the best,
Never looks back,
But keeps going to the end.

Galatians 5:21-26
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. [26] Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Galatians 5:14-21
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [15] But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. [16] This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. [17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. [18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

James 1:19-26
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: [20] For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. [21] Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. [22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. [23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: [24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. [25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. [26] If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

And , can't find the one I'm looking for about the correct procedure for lovingly confronting a brother about thier sin or error.

If you feel, by what YOU understand, that you are not being fed correctly then joyfully leave and be led by God to direct you to a church that will.

As for the whole Sabbath thing...um...what ???
We are to worship God 24/7 in everything we do, our whole life is a perpetual sacrifice to Him.
When you drive your car and keep the speed limit, you are honouring God.
When you go to work and your behaviour is like Christs, you are honouring God.
I see no difference between Monday and Sunday.

Accusing people of being offended and leaving churches is a weak excuse when the reason they left is because a gospel is preached that is different from what is written.

Majority doesn't rule...God and His truth does.

I church hopped, as they call it, for 3 years till God led me to a church where I stayed 10 years, and even then that season was over and God called me to move on.
Remember, church is just a group of people seeking God.
We are not to be loyal to one "church", but to be loyal to God and whatever He has for us, regardless of what others think we should or should not do.

 

[NoForMe]

So when is the decision to leave a church the right one? And when is it ok? In what situation? Is this a situation capable of leaving?

 

[Alternate Carpark]

Have a read of the "PASTOR" thread on the third page in this section first.

notofthisworld is having similar struggles and you may find your answer in there.
Please post back here if you have more questions NoForMe.

 

[ShetlandRose]

The things you have related in your posts disturb me.

This is a pastor who publicly announces he is not here to counsel? What kind of a shepherd is this? At the very least a lazy one, but it seems to me also one who cares not for his flock and would leave them defenseless in an attack.

Foul language and indecent humor would definitely show me a window to the man's heart through his tongue. ("For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart." Matthew 12:34)

Tithing has its place, and it is important for the practical financial maintenance of the Church...but...20 minutes each service? From what you have written, you have a healthier attitude on giving and receiving than your pastor.

When your pastor speaks in tongues in the prayer is there an interpretation from the congregation? Is it at length without an interpretation, or just a few words?

 

[NoForMe]

Well there is no interpretation because we believe that there is a diffence between speaking in tongues and praying in tongues, I believe that praying in tonuges should be done silently within yourself or audibly but at a whisper. The bible says praying in the spirit edifies yourself and gives thanks to God, So I don't see why a pastor is at the pulpet edifying himself? I think I'm going to meet with my pastor but in the mean time I'm going to see if changes can be made to help the church grow and prosper, If nothing is going to change than perhaps it's I that need to make the change and move on

 

[ShetlandRose]

Well there is no interpretation because we believe that there is a diffence between speaking in tongues and praying in tongues, I believe that praying in tonuges should be done silently within yourself or audibly but at a whisper. The bible says praying in the spirit edifies yourself and gives thanks to God, So I don't see why a pastor is at the pulpet edifying himself?..

Okay, thank you, yes I understand the difference. I don't know if this would be considered wrong or in bad taste though. I have seen pastors and evangelists pray in tongues from the pulpit--just not at length. And you didn't say how long your pastor prayed in that manner.

 

[momof3blessings]

I definetley Agree, Heres the thing,

I think my pastor is a great guy, but he is not approachable as I see it. He is said openly in church that he is not here to counsel anyone, that he will point them to the bible but he does not want to counsel anyone. Also he spole of a pastor leaving his wife and he said he would kick the **** out of him and not even repent. He makes many off color jokes that I don't agree with even being said. But you are exactly right, What do I do about it not being in order. It's amazing how the lord leads, recently I had the opportunity to talk to and learn of a singer, Jeremy Camps, testimony. It spoke to me and I wanted to know more. And I want to know more and more each day. I Just want to make sure that the holy spirit is speaking through me and not the enemy trying to deter me. I have friends and I am very involved in the video part of church. yes we have video cameras, but we don't do much to reach out to others either. It seems things are way out of order, but am I correct? And what does the bible tell me to do if they are?

The tithing part does not bother me for my pastor does the same thing. Remember there are new people every week in the congregation and they may not know what it means to tithe. The explanation could be for them.
The stuff above is what disturbs me. Comments like that don't give you that feeling you have found your home in church. My husband and I left a church like that where there were off the wall coments and jokes at others expense. He even went as far to say that if we wanted to join the church fine but we dont' need you we are happy at the size of our church. One time he made fun of a women as she was walking out because she didn't agree with what he said.

For a few weeks visit other churches and see how you feel. Don't let friends and a feeling of obligation keep you from trying other churches. After this you will know which is talking to you, but personally I think you already know.

 

[ShetlandRose]

...I think I'm going to meet with my pastor but in the mean time I'm going to see if changes can be made to help the church grow and prosper, If nothing is going to change than perhaps it's I that need to make the change and move on

These sound like good steps.

 

[NoForMe]

Okay, thank you, yes I understand the difference. I don't know if this would be considered wrong or in bad taste though. I have seen pastors and evangelists pray in tongues from the pulpit--just not at length. And you didn't say how long your pastor prayed in that manner.

Well Show me where in the bible that leading the church while praying in the spirit is? I see it no where, I see what it means, and I see what we are to do in the church, The bible says that others will see and will be confused. My bible says nothing shall be added unto or taken away from. Where does he have the personal authority to add something to the church that God never commanded to do, or even ever did in the first place?

 

[ShetlandRose]

Hmmmm. That might be a very interesting subject to present to believers in the Charismatic Movement section of the forums.

 

[NoForMe]

I am in no part trying to start a debate. I'm just searching for answers as many of us are. The fact is, there is one truth and thats all. I want to be stronger in my faith and help build others up as well. I love the lord and I want to worship him to the best of my ability, and diving into his word helps!