Church of Scotland to allow same-sex marriages

[Occams Barber]

Church of Scotland to allow same-sex marriages
BBC News - 23 May 2022

The Church of Scotland has voted to allow clergy to conduct same-sex marriages for the first time.

The historic vote was approved by members of the General Assembly in Edinburgh following years of campaigning.

It means same-sex couples will be able to marry in church in services conducted by ministers.

Clergy will apply to become celebrants of same sex marriage. But ministers will not be forced to take part.

The results of the vote were: 274 for and 136 against.

More...
Church of Scotland to allow same-sex marriages - BBC News

OB

 

[Hammster]

Just more apostasy.

 

[durangodawood]

This is what happens where you allow men to wear skirts.

 

[d taylor]

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Many churches today are simply country clubs for people who have an interest or some kind of belief in God or a god.

Other wise it is something to join or be a member of, for the purpose of socializing. To be around people who share a common interest in religion.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I think some churches softening their position on things has been somewhat out of necessity.

With regards to some locations and regions, the churches' harsher stances on certain issues no longer aligns as closely with that of the general public.

Combined with the fact that there's an increasing number of people becoming "unaffiliated", the no-nonsense reality is simply "fewer people attending means less money coming in", and while obviously money isn't the primary focus for most churches, building upkeep, pastoral support (in the form of allowing the pastors to feed themselves and their families) isn't free, and there does need to at least be some sort of revenue stream coming in order to support a church.


My aunt's church here in the US experienced a bit of a rift over another hot-button issue a few years back, that of allowing women to hold leadership positions (which is somewhat still controversial in certain evangelical groups), their refusal to embrace the idea (despite over half the church being on-board with it), led to something of a small exodus from the church - something like quarter of the church cut ties and started going somewhere else.

Her church has been in financial hot water ever since as losing 1/4 of the tithing revenue is no small hit on the budget. They've had to take out equity loans and borrow against the property itself (which had been previous paid off 30 years ago) to try to stay afloat.


I guess it comes down to which hills a church is willing to die on.

Some churches take certain issues extremely seriously and don't want to cave on them (despite the social attitudes prevailing in the area) and choose a "live by the sword, die by the sword" approach...

Others opt to soften their positions on certain in the hopes that "if we can be more 'welcoming' and 'approachable' to the community as a whole, we can get more people in and focus on the 'core material and substance' of the faith"

As a non-religious person, it's not my place to tell a church which path they should take on that, but I can imagine it can be a delicate balancing act.

On one hand, a church may not want to be seen as "caving" on something they've have a zero-tolerance policy on for decades as that can convey a lack of conviction.

At the same time, as an example, if a church has been preaching on the sin of drinking for decades, and social shifts have occurred and the majority of people in the region are okay with having a beer every once in a while, I can see where they'd say "well, maybe we'll ease up on the drinking thing and just focus on the gospel, we still don't like drinking, but it's not an issue worth losing 20% of the congregation over, and not one worth acting a barrier to new people coming in to hear the message"

 

[RileyG]

Doesn't the Church of England allow same-sex marriage? I know the Church of Scotland sees the English monarchy, the Queen, as an honorary member, despite the fact she will always remain head of the Church of England and an Anglican.

It's not surprising considering how liberal the CoS is. They're also losing members fast.

 

[Arcangl86]

Doesn't the Church of England allow same-sex marriage?

No. They do allow same sex civil partnerships, but they restrict marriage to between a man and a woman.

I know the Church of Scotland sees the English monarchy, the Queen, as an honorary member, despite the fact she will always remain head of the Church of England and an Anglican.

The Queen is legally the protector of the Church of Scotland and has the right ot be present at the General Assembly every year, though without vote.

It's not surprising considering how liberal the CoS is. They're also losing members fast.

Christianity in the UK in general is struggling. But I also can also see the logic of the state church having the same view involving marriage as the secular law allows for.

 

[RileyG]

No. They do allow same sex civil partnerships, but they restrict marriage to between a man and a woman.
The Queen is legally the protector of the Church of Scotland and has the right ot be present at the General Assembly every year, though without vote.


Christianity in the UK in general is struggling. But I also can also see the logic of the state church having the same view involving marriage as the secular law allows for.

Thank you for your response and correction! It's appreciated. I am an American and am Catholic so I am not fully aware of how religion works in the UK.

God bless

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Are those faithful to Christian standards of marriage in the Church of Scotland allowed to refuse to marry a homosexual?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Are those faithful to Christian standards of marriage in the Church of Scotland allowed to refuse to marry a homosexual?

If you don't want to marry a homosexual, don't.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If you don't want to marry a homosexual, don't.

That doesn't answer my question. Are dissenting clergy in the COS free to not marry homosexuals?

 

[Arcangl86]

That doesn't answer my question. Are dissenting clergy in the COS free to not marry homosexuals?

That question is literally answered in the OP.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

That question is literally answered in the OP.

Excellent. Ministers who dissent should do everything in their power to exclude homosexual members in their congregations from marriage.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Excellent. Ministers who dissent should do everything in their power to exclude homosexual members in their congregations from marriage.

I'd venture as guess and say that if a particular pastor/priest is going out of their way (or as you phrased it "everything in their power" to exclude a particular group of people, they probably don't have a lot of people from their group attending.

They then run the risk of alienating some non-gay members of their church if they choose to go out of their way to criticize what could be that members son/daughter/sister/brother/etc...

Per my previous post, a church could also be a bind with regards to the overall social attitudes of the region they're operating in.

For instance, if a church could hold those strict stances back in the 80's (and it reflected how 80% of the people in that community felt), as demographics shift, that may not still be true in 2022.

Every church leader is faced with the practical question "how many people can we afford to alienate and still keep the lights on in the place?"

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I'd venture as guess and say that if a particular pastor/priest is going out of their way (or as you phrased it "everything in their power" to exclude a particular group of people, they probably don't have a lot of people from their group attending.

They then run the risk of alienating some non-gay members of their church if they choose to go out of their way to criticize what could be that members son/daughter/sister/brother/etc...

Per my previous post, a church could also be a bind with regards to the overall social attitudes of the region they're operating in.

For instance, if a church could hold those strict stances back in the 80's (and it reflected how 80% of the people in that community felt), as demographics shift, that may not still be true in 2022.

Every church leader is faced with the practical question "how many people can we afford to alienate and still keep the lights on in the place?"

You always run the risk of alienating someone when you come to a definitive position. It's a matter for survival for those who want to hold a genuinely Christian position on sexuality in the Church of Scotland. If the Church of Scotland is determine to tolerate a Christian position then I hope those who adhere to the Church's universal historic standard will take whatever measures necessary to prevent adopting the secular sexual position.

 

[Pommer]

Excellent. Ministers who dissent should do everything in their power to exclude homosexual members in their congregations from marriage.

Back in ye olden days the thinking was “homosexuals are promiscuous”, and now that they’d like to not be and settle down and live a monogamous lifestyle, you’d have the dissenting COS clergy work against that?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Back in ye olden days the thinking was “homosexuals are promiscuous”, and now that they’d like to not be and settle down and live a monogamous lifestyle, you’d have the dissenting COS clergy work against that?

I would have homosexuals go to their own congregations and not the Churches which seek to live up to Christian values. Is there something wrong with that?

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

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Many churches today are simply country clubs for people who have an interest or some kind of belief in God or a god.

Other wise it is something to join or be a member of, for the purpose of socializing. To be around people who share a common interest in religion.

Isn't that's what is was meant to be? Reading the Bible, talking about God, and socializing with like minded people.

 

[Whyayeman]

Ministers who dissent should do everything in their power to exclude homosexual members in their congregations from marriage.

Why? Wouldn't faithful couples simply move to he church in the next town?

If they hate homosexuals in their congregations, what are they doing in the ministry at all?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

You always run the risk of alienating someone when you come to a definitive position. It's a matter for survival for those who want to hold a genuinely Christian position on sexuality in the Church of Scotland. If the Church of Scotland is determine to tolerate a Christian position then I hope those who adhere to the Church's universal historic standard will take whatever measures necessary to prevent adopting the secular sexual position.

Actually, the "historic standard", if there is one, is that churches have been softening positions on extraneous issues ("extraneous" meaning...not related to the core doctrine of the faith) progressively over time as societal attitudes shift.

As noted before, growing up in a Baptist household, I got to see some of those transitions play out.

They used to have a strict zero tolerance policy on:
- Alcohol consumption
- Tobacco use
- Watching any movie or TV show that used profanity
- Listening to secular music
- Dancing

...you don't find too many of those rigid policies in place at a lot of the Baptist churches in the north anymore. (although I'm sure a few in the south have kept those rules around)

Why? Because:
A) none of those things were really central to the core doctrine
B) they probably realized that their numbers were starting to dwindle every time they denied membership to, or kicked someone out for catching them having a beer with dinner, having a cigar every once in a while, or listening to Van Halen.


I would also ask, why is a "genuinely Christian position on sexuality" prioritized so much more than the "genuinely Christian position" on a variety of other sins listed in the Bible?

For instance, gluttony is mentioned in the Bible (even equated to idolatry in a few verses), why is a "line in the sand" being taken on sexual topics, but not that?