Church Leadership Issue

[ByTheSpirit]

So I want to be very careful not to offend or upset anyone here, just know what I'm asking is how I see scripture currently. My current fellowship is considering allowing women to be in positions of authority within our fellowship, mainly as elders/pastors. I do not understand scripture that supports this. I won't post what scriptures I use to support my basis, because I don't want this to turn into a "yes they can" vs. "no they can't" debate.

What I'm asking is with this impasse, should I stay with the current fellowship and be a "good follower"?

My current position is that I'm ok with some disagreement on certain theological issues. Like there are soft rules and hard rules type deal. Example:

A soft rule is having disagreements on stuff such as the end times. Jesus isn't going to care if we are pre-trib, pre-wrath, post-trib that type of deal. We can disagree on that and that's perfectly fine.

A hard rule is like salvation by faith. You MUST have faith to be saved, this cannot be compromised.

So what does that have to do with my question? Thank you for asking! I believe when God says "this is what I look for in a leader of my people." we need to stay within whatever framework He gives us. So I view this issue as a hard rule type issue. It's not set in stone yet, but I guess I'm trying to understand if leaving the fellowship would be violating Ephesians 4:1-3, "maintaining unity in the Spirit." If I leave because of this issue, do you see that as violation church unity?

Sorry, lots of information, lots of questions, I'm pretty conflicted on this and seek the advice of other godly people (Proverbs 15:22)

 

[seeking.IAM]

I do not see leaving over a matter of conscience as violation of maintaining unity in the Spirit. Only you can decide how important this issue is to you. I think it is important to align oneself with a body that nurtures one's faith and provides meaningful worship. I would recommend considering the greater good. That is, to reflect as to whether your faith would be better served to remain in this body even under female leadership or to change to a church with male leadership but may be less gratifying to you in other ways.

I've never been to a church where I agreed with everything, so I no longer expect to. That said, we all have "stoppers." You must decide if gender of leadership is one of yours.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I want to echo what @seeking.IAM said. I think they said more or less what I would say.

Additionally, first and foremost you have to make your decisions based on what your current congregation is using as their Biblical evidence. I myself am in between on this particular issue. I can see the argument on both sides. There are passages that talk about female leadership. So it really depends on if the church is basing its decision on the Bible or not. If it's just based on sentimentality, then I would run the other way in a hurry because it is almost guaranteed that they will start to accept other things that are in our culture today (such as homosexual marriage).

So it is forgivable if they are basing their view on scripture, but it is not if there is no Biblical support for their position. But at the end of the day, even if they are using the Bible as their argument, you still do not need to stay there if it goes against your convictions.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I want to echo what @seeking.IAM said. I think they said more or less what I would say.

Additionally, first and foremost you have to make your decisions based on what your current congregation is using as their Biblical evidence. I myself am in between on this particular issue. I can see the argument on both sides. There are passages that talk about female leadership. So it really depends on if the church is basing its decision on the Bible or not. If it's just based on sentimentality, then I would run the other way in a hurry because it is almost guaranteed that they will start to accept other things that are in our culture today (such as homosexual marriage).

So it is forgivable if they are basing their view on scripture, but it is not if there is no Biblical support for their position. But at the end of the day, even if they are using the Bible as their argument, you still do not need to stay there if it goes against your convictions.

I'm curious, and I say this sincerely, what passages in the New Testament support female leadership? If I'm unaware of something I'd like to be educated. It's likely I know what passages you speak of, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding them.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I'm curious, and I say this sincerely, what passages in the New Testament support female leadership? If I'm unaware of something I'd like to be educated. It's likely I know what passages you speak of, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding them.

I only didn't bring it up because you said yourself that you were not interested in debating the verses about male authority. But if you would like to know the position, I think the clearest one is here:

"When we completed our voyage from Tyre, we reached Ptolemais, where we greeted the brothers and sisters and stayed with them for a day. The next day we left and came to Caesarea, where we entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the Seven, and stayed with him. This man had four virgin daughters who prophesied." (Acts 21:7–9)

Also, this is a matter of debate, but it is possible that there was a female apostle as well found here:

"Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews and fellow prisoners. They are noteworthy in the eyes of the apostles, and they were also in Christ before me." (Romans 16:7)

Nothing is super clear cut, but IMO nothing really rules it impossible that there were women who had some degree of authority in the early church.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I only didn't bring it up because you said yourself that you were not interested in debating the verses about male authority. But if you would like to know the position, I think the clearest one is here:

"When we completed our voyage from Tyre, we reached Ptolemais, where we greeted the brothers and sisters and stayed with them for a day. The next day we left and came to Caesarea, where we entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the Seven, and stayed with him. This man had four virgin daughters who prophesied." (Acts 21:7–9)

Also, this is a matter of debate, but it is possible that there was a female apostle as well found here:

"Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews and fellow prisoners. They are noteworthy in the eyes of the apostles, and they were also in Christ before me." (Romans 16:7)

Nothing is super clear cut, but IMO nothing really rules it impossible that there were women who had some degree of authority in the early church.

That's respectable and I appreciate your response. You are correct that I don't want this become a debate on women in ministry, Lord knows there's 1000 such threads around here already.

If I may I would like explain where I'm coming from BRIEFLY just for context and maybe if I'm understanding something wrong someone can help me.

1 Timothy 2:12-13 is what I base my view on. To avoid lengthy and fruitless debate, I just see this as the baseline for my understanding. Women should not hold authority over men in the church, for Adam was made first then Eve. That last bit gives it a more universal application I feel.

Phillip's daughters were Prophets, but I don't know if Prophets were authority positions in church. I feel they were more there for guidance, not to exercise authority over the church. Like Agabus you know, Acts mentions him twice and never he was exercising authority, rather just saying "This is what the Lord says will happen."

Even Phoebe in Romans 16 being a deacon, I don't know if I consider deacons as authoritative leaders in the church.

I respect your feedback and hopefully my reply provides some sort of context for where I stand.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

That's respectable and I appreciate your response. You are correct that I don't want this become a debate on women in ministry, Lord knows there's 1000 such threads around here already.

If I may I would like explain where I'm coming from BRIEFLY just for context and maybe if I'm understanding something wrong someone can help me.

1 Timothy 2:12-13 is what I base my view on. To avoid lengthy and fruitless debate, I just see this as the baseline for my understanding. Women should not hold authority over men in the church, for Adam was made first then Eve. That last bit gives it a more universal application I feel.

Phillip's daughters were Prophets, but I don't know if Prophets were authority positions in church. I feel they were more there for guidance, not to exercise authority over the church. Like Agabus you know, Acts mentions him twice and never he was exercising authority, rather just saying "This is what the Lord says will happen."

Even Phoebe in Romans 16 being a deacon, I don't know if I consider deacons as authoritative leaders in the church.

I respect your feedback and hopefully my reply provides some sort of context for where I stand.

Sure. I understand.

I have reason to believe that authority was given to prophets though. What else would you do with this verse?

"So, then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with the saints, and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. In him the whole building, being put together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord." (Ephesians 2:19–21)

And if you think that is just talking about OT prophets, Paul mentions them again here,

"And he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, growing into maturity with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness." (Ephesians 4:11–13)

And I have debated this elsewhere in one of my own threads, but the key here is, "until" which means exactly how it is written in English. In short, if we still have evangelists, pastors and teachers, then I see no reason why we don't have apostles and prophets either.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Sure. I understand.

I have reason to believe that authority was given to prophets though. What else would you do with this verse?

"So, then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with the saints, and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. In him the whole building, being put together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord." (Ephesians 2:19–21)

And if you think that is just talking about OT prophets, Paul mentions them again here,

"And he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, growing into maturity with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness." (Ephesians 4:11–13)

And I have debated this elsewhere in one of my own threads, but the key here is, "until" which means exactly how it is written in English. In short, if we still have evangelists, pastors and teachers, then I see no reason why we don't have apostles and prophets either.

I agree that the Church should still have Prophets and Apostles. I think lots of denominations recognize Apostles even, but just rename them Missionaries.

I will ponder and pray on what you shared in Ephesians 2. Thank you for your input!

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I agree that the Church should still have Prophets and Apostles. I think lots of denominations recognize Apostles even, but just rename them Missionaries.

I will ponder and pray on what you shared in Ephesians 2. Thank you for your input!

Just for added context regarding Ephesians 2, take note that Paul tells us who the "us" and "we" are in Ephesians 1:3-12 as the "apostles and prophets." How do I know this? In Ephesians 1:13 it says, "In Him you also," likewise in Ephesians 2:22 it also says, "In Him you also." Paul is speaking of 2 different groups of people, clearly.

You can read about this more in my thread here: Pronoun use in the Epistles

 

[Pioneer3mm]

In short, if we still have evangelists, pastors and teachers, then I see no reason why we don't have apostles and prophets either.

Good point.
---
It seems...we focus on pastoral & teaching ministries..too much.
- apostolic & prophetic ministries.. also need to be emphasized.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Good point.
---
It seems...we focus on pastoral & teaching ministries..too much.
- apostolic & prophetic ministries.. also need to be emphasized.

For clarity sake, my question wasn't just focusing on pastoral/elder ministries. I was asking generally in reference to any position within a congregation or fellowship that would hold authority.

 

[eleos1954]

So I want to be very careful not to offend or upset anyone here, just know what I'm asking is how I see scripture currently. My current fellowship is considering allowing women to be in positions of authority within our fellowship, mainly as elders/pastors. I do not understand scripture that supports this. I won't post what scriptures I use to support my basis, because I don't want this to turn into a "yes they can" vs. "no they can't" debate.

What I'm asking is with this impasse, should I stay with the current fellowship and be a "good follower"?

My current position is that I'm ok with some disagreement on certain theological issues. Like there are soft rules and hard rules type deal. Example:

A soft rule is having disagreements on stuff such as the end times. Jesus isn't going to care if we are pre-trib, pre-wrath, post-trib that type of deal. We can disagree on that and that's perfectly fine.

A hard rule is like salvation by faith. You MUST have faith to be saved, this cannot be compromised.

So what does that have to do with my question? Thank you for asking! I believe when God says "this is what I look for in a leader of my people." we need to stay within whatever framework He gives us. So I view this issue as a hard rule type issue. It's not set in stone yet, but I guess I'm trying to understand if leaving the fellowship would be violating Ephesians 4:1-3, "maintaining unity in the Spirit." If I leave because of this issue, do you see that as violation church unity?

Sorry, lots of information, lots of questions, I'm pretty conflicted on this and seek the advice of other godly people (Proverbs 15:22)

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 KJV

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

There are many ways women can and do participate in the church ... each church decides what that is.

The man is to be under the Lord .... the women under the man (if he is under the Lord) ... this fulfills the full compliment .... both are to spread the gospel and both can and should do that. It's not a competition ... nor meant to devalue a woman in any way. Women serve a supportive role and the importance of this should not be discarded or taken as a lesser position.

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

This is the full compliment of the family unit as set forth by the Lord .... are we to ignore it?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 KJV

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

There are many ways women can and do participate in the church ... each church decides what that is.

The man is to be under the Lord .... the women under the man (if he is under the Lord) ... this fulfills the full compliment .... both are to spread the gospel and both can and should do that. It's not a competition ... nor meant to devalue a woman in any way. Women serve a supportive role and the importance of this should not be discarded or taken as a lesser position.

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

This is the full compliment of the family unit as set forth by the Lord .... are we to ignore it?

That's not what I was asking. What I was wondering about is if I'm making a bigger issue out of it than what it needs to be. If by leaving the fellowship of this community because they decide to allow women to be in authority, if I'd be breaking the unity of the Spirit as described in Ephesians 4:1-3

 

[ari.sketch]

just my take on this ... this "unity of the Spirit", I think, has to do with the whole body of Christ as a whole than a single, local church community.

And unity in the Spirit has more to do with our common belief in Jesus - that he is the Son of God, who came to earth as a man, who was crucified on the cross, died and God raised him up on the 3rd day.
If you believe and teach others something else different, then that would be breaking the unity of the Spirit.

You leaving a local church over a little disagreement may not break THE unity of the Spirit spoken in Ephesian, but may break the social dynamic of that particular church. You're just leaving as oppose to trying to break their view or belief system.

If I were in your shoes ... which I may be when I go back home, though the issue may be different, but it has to do with choosing a church, either go back to the one I was in, or find a new one

My plan is to pray and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance, and God may let me choose both option,
but in the end, I want to submit to where God wants me to go,

a lot of times it's not about our comfort, but where we would grow best

Hope this helps, God bless you in your decision.

 

[NBB]

I was with doubts before about this, even said they couldn't, but i think i have seen women pastors being used by God to do miracles. And who we are to oppose what God does. I just went the other day to a church with a woman pastor, and brought home the presence of God in myself, so that bad it can't be.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I was with doubts before about this, even said they couldn't, but i think i have seen women pastors being used by God to do miracles. And who we are to oppose what God does. I just went the other day to a church with a woman pastor, and brought home the presence of God in myself, so that bad it can't be.

The evidence of miracles is not necessarily sign that God approves of a minister being a woman. Miracles just give evidence to the gospel. And if you are a Christian, the presence of God lives within you at all times, so that's not evidence either.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

just my take on this ... this "unity of the Spirit", I think, has to do with the whole body of Christ as a whole than a single, local church community.

And unity in the Spirit has more to do with our common belief in Jesus - that he is the Son of God, who came to earth as a man, who was crucified on the cross, died and God raised him up on the 3rd day.
If you believe and teach others something else different, then that would be breaking the unity of the Spirit.

You leaving a local church over a little disagreement may not break THE unity of the Spirit spoken in Ephesian, but may break the social dynamic of that particular church. You're just leaving as oppose to trying to break their view or belief system.

If I were in your shoes ... which I may be when I go back home, though the issue may be different, but it has to do with choosing a church, either go back to the one I was in, or find a new one

My plan is to pray and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance, and God may let me choose both option,
but in the end, I want to submit to where God wants me to go,

a lot of times it's not about our comfort, but where we would grow best

Hope this helps, God bless you in your decision.

That does help, and I agree, sometimes God puts us in uncomfortable situations for our own growth and for a specific purpose.

A couple other things that have happened within this group recently have kind of further highlighted some issues to me that I will continue prayer over.

Truth be told, I don't think I need to break fellowship with them over the issue, I just wonder what my "official" responsibilities to this body would be. Jesus was always fellowshipping with people that were outside of the "will of God", so I don't think that's excuse enough to say no more.

 

[ari.sketch]

Just a question, because I am curious as well and would love to learn more about this.

Have you prayed about this (actually, scratch that, I'm pretty sure you have

What do you think God, or the Holy Spirit, is telling you about this issue?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Just a question, because I am curious as well and would love to learn more about this.

Have you prayed about this (actually, scratch that, I'm pretty sure you have

What do you think God, or the Holy Spirit, is telling you about this issue?

I feel like He is leading me elsewhere, but as with other things I'll maintain until I'm abundantly certain

 

[OldAbramBrown]

I agree that the Church should still have Prophets and Apostles. I think lots of denominations recognize Apostles even, but just rename them Missionaries.

I will ponder and pray on what you shared in Ephesians 2. Thank you for your input!

beware of official "apostles", genuine co-apostling is done low key by pew goers.