Church discipline for morbidly obese

[bbbbbbb]

@Strong in Him : If ppl want to encourage eating salads, this is fine; but trying to compel it makes no sense.

Wow! Whoever said anything about compelling anyone to eat (or not eat) anything? All I have ever advocated is appropriate action by the oversight of a church for members who are engaged in obvious sin, which could be any of a large number of sins specified in scripture and which scripture clearly instructs actions to be taken by the leadership of a church.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I get it. You (sort of) love your friends but not to the point of potentially offending them, but as for your neighbors you have no concern for them whatsoever as they are not your friends.

I think this is in the form of a rather strongly leading question/suggestion...

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think this is in the form of a rather strongly leading question/suggestion...

This was not posed as any form of question, so I wonder how you determined that it was "in the form of a rather strongly leading question/suggestion."

 

[faroukfarouk]

This was not posed as any form of question, so I wonder how you determined that it was "in the form of a rather strongly leading question/suggestion."

Okay, fine...

 

[The Liturgist]

Hello,
I’m sure to get flamed hard for this post but I don’t care because it’s important to me and my family.

for the purposes of clarity in this thread I am asking regarding morbidly obese people. This is loosely defined by medical community as someone approximately 100 pounds over their ideal body weight. For example, a 6 foot 30 year old male who weights 275-300 pounds, with the majority of the excess weight being fat (and not muscle). This is not just overweight or “fat” Christians who could use to lose 10-20 pounds to be more healthy.

I believe that in such cases the elders of the church need to work with the morbidly obese individual to address their sin issue (gluttony). If they are willing to address the issue and repent, take steps to overcome, that is ideal. If the person refuses to acknowledge the sin, I think that church discipline procedures should be implemented in order to lead to possible repentance.

Obviously this needs to be done in love and by elder agreement in extreme cases, not fat shaming etc.

remember, in order to maintain morbid obesity status, even with health issues you have to consume VAST amounts of calories, 5000-7000, we are talking four pizzas and a dozen eggs and two loafs of bread and twelve pounds of bacon a day levels...


I also think if someone is giving themselves diabetes and other health issues from the overeating they need to be called out privately by other believers but that’s more sensitive and I havnt thought through it as much.

This to me represents an example as to why the idea of “church discipline” has become a dangerous concept in the hands of groups like 9Marks, because many of these people became obese owing to owing to health problems unrelated to gluttony.

Really, a better way to do this is to do what John Wesley did, and promote the traditional Wednesday and Friday fasts still observed by the Eastern churches.

 

[bbbbbbb]

This to me represents an example as to why the idea of “church discipline” has become a dangerous concept in the hands of groups like 9Marks, because many of these people became obese owing to owing to health problems unrelated to gluttony.

Really, a better way to do this is to do what John Wesley did, and promote the traditional Wednesday and Friday fasts still observed by the Eastern churches.

You might find this helpful - Is Fasting Healthy?

 

[GaveMeJoy]

In practice everybody has a different metabolism and some people can do a whole load more with a calorie than others and therefore need less.


This is scientifically and objectively false. Any human male will maintain a healthy body weight if they eat their daily recommended caloric number (2300-2700 depending on certain factors). “Slow metabolism” is a lie designed primarily by overeaters as an excuse to do their thing

 

[GaveMeJoy]

Indeed Robin. We should be looking for that speck in our eye first. Thank you for bringing this up.

Well, not in the case of church discipline. Unrepentant sin results in specific steps, that’s what I’m asking about. I’m not saying that I get to make these decisions I’m asking if elders who follow the scripture would do this in obedience if necessary.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

I'm almost certain they will know that/would have been told by their doctors, though. If they lose weight, it needs to be because they want to and realise a need for change; otherwise it most likely won't work. If a person is self motivated - they want to lose weight to have a baby/fit into a dress/be able to run around after their children/don't want to die young - then when it's hard work, they will have a reason to keep going. I've read about people who were publicly teased about their weight, and it made the so unhappy, then went straight home to comfort/binge eat.



That's admirable - but unless the person asks for help, there may be nothing you can do, except pray.
Like with an alcoholic, or any other addict, they have to want to change; in some cases they may not be able to unless they reach rock bottom or get some kind of wake up call.
But I don't believe it's the Minister's job to deliver that wake up call.

The scripture literally says it is the elders job to give the wake up call of church discipline to unrepentant church members and not even eat with them. So like, why do American Christians pretend the whole concept of church discipline is only for people who have affairs? I just don’t get it. If someone is sinning, you go to them and they won’t repent, you take the elders and they won’t repent, then you Have to do the drastic step of church discipline with the goal of repentence. I guess people keep forgetting the OP is talking about people morbidly obese that’s 100 pounds overweight. I literally can’t imagine how some of these people can say it’s a “slow metabolism.” It’s abject gluttony. There is no medical condition in the universe that can make you 100 pounds overweight. These people are often too fat to even feed themselves and they have full time enablers who work and buy them and cook them and feed them massive amounts of food. It’s the epitome of gluttony to be 100 pounds overweight and it needs to be called exactly what it is not protected by well meaning Christians. That’s not love.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

Thank you. Have always been this way, even when young. Went to boarding school for 2 years. About 7 of us went on this banana and buttermilk diet for one week. Can't remember how much of each we could have a day. It was supervised by one of the Cafeteria Supervisors. There was no way to cheat. At the end of the week we got together, some had lost 3 Lbs, some 5, one lost 7 lbs---me---3/4 of a lb! I am seriously unimpressed with the calorie/exercise ratio theory! We all had gym class and we all walked everywhere. No students had cars. Very large campus near ocean. Actually, it hit with puberty. Before that I have pictures that show me as a normal child. I was always overweight, morbidity hit when I started doing Dialysis in the hospitals instead of the clinic---not exercising as I had been and much longer hours, 100 hour work weeks not uncommon--too tired to do anything else. Then fibro hit, had to work less and less and back with degenerative disks and in neck, had to quite work and was on disability, now just social security. The other techs and I would have breakfast together at this one hospital---there was everybody chowing down. Debbie weighed 95 lbs, soaking wet after breakfast--of hash browns, with gravy on top, 2 eggs, fried, toast with lots of butter and jam, 3 sausages and 4 bacon. Me--bowl of oatmeal with yogurt. Her lunch and dinner were just as heavy. But she was super hyper. I am forever stuck with being around people who eat like a horse and gain little to no weight. Really irks me! In order to maintain a weight of 180 lbs--I exercised like a dog and ate like a bird. Doing the hospitals at work I could not maintain that and, as usual, the lbs came on like a bullet. I am so blessed I can hardly stand it. I mean to have a good long talk with the Lord about this "blessing" one day.

You certainly have a battle but you can overcome by the power of Jesus and developing the right dietary practices. It’s just hard sometimes I hear that! Was fat all my life, lost 51 pound in 2.5 months....spinach smoothies instead of breakfast, no carbs and 4 miles a day. God has the power!!!!

 

[mmksparbud]

You certainly have a battle but you can overcome by the power of Jesus and developing the right dietary practices. It’s just hard sometimes I hear that! Was fat all my life, lost 51 pound in 2.5 months....spinach smoothies instead of breakfast, no carbs and 4 miles a day. God has the power!!!!

Yah-- got a few barriers---my heart will not tolerate much movement. Going to the front door, in my wheel chair, can trigger too fast a heart rate. I would love to be vegetarian again, I am borderline kidney failure, I can't eat too much beans or other high protein foods, I am on thyroid (since I was 22) and can't have much broccoli or other cruciferous plants or soybeans, I'd do better without cheese, but eggs and cheese are a safe protein for me, I also have some sardines or tuna or salmon. My colon surgery caused some problems, then my heart damage caused some and my degenerative discs caused some---I just leave it up to God and do the best I can. My nurse said I've lost some weight, my B/P cuff had to be tightened! LOL! I'll take what I can get! I am not finding excuses nor having a pity party---this is just the way it is. I can't order much fresh produce except once a month due to finances. I have to order on line and have them delivered so I can't afford once a week---there are delivery charges and/ or tips. Being diabetic I can't eat too much fruit or my sugars go way too high. Oh, well----we all do the best we can with what we've got! All in all I am quite content with my life. God has given me a way to hold on to my house and pay my bills, though I do have to file bankruptcy. I am grateful for Hospice for they can give me pain meds without trouble which is what helps keep my B/P down, and makes my fibro livable. At least I am not living under some bridge and pushing a shopping cart! I don't have a TV--too much money and it's mostly garbage, I have a computer and can get my church 3ABN and Hope channels that way---so I've no complaints. God has taken care of everything for me.

 

[The Liturgist]

You might find this helpful - Is Fasting Healthy?

Actually no because in a traditional Christian fast, except on Good Friday, we don’t abstain from all food, but merely start cutting back, depending on the season, first dropping red meat, then white, then seafood (except shellfish and caviar, which some Eastern Christians consider are edible even in Lent), then dairy products, and finally in Lent, Wednesday and Friday are limited to dry foods, fresh fruit and so on. And not eating on Good Friday is limited to the healthy. Indeed all fasting is restricted to the healthy.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Actually no because in a traditional Christian fast, except on Good Friday, we don’t abstain from all food, but merely start cutting back, depending on the season, first dropping red meat, then white, then seafood (except shellfish and caviar, which some Eastern Christians consider are edible even in Lent), then dairy products, and finally in Lent, Wednesday and Friday are limited to dry foods, fresh fruit and so on. And not eating on Good Friday is limited to the healthy. Indeed all fasting is restricted to the healthy.

However, fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays as per Mr. Wesley's advice was advocated as a means for a morbidly obese person to lose weight. I do not think that is a reasonable solution.

 

[sunlover1]

Yes, I have and I am one of them. There are older ones, I've had degenerative disks, fibro, and am in wheelchair, heart problems due to Dr. refusing to give me pain pills, and I was in such pain it sent my B/P so high it damaged my heart. Now I'm in hospice and can barely go to the front door without my heart acting up. My stepmother died at 91--she was obese. I've known several other elderly patients who were also obese. When I was younger I took care of an old couple, she was not heavy but, at 94---he was obese. So, no---it's not practically impossible!

I'm surprised too.
I have two friends in two different states who are/were activity directors at senior care homes and was told that it's rare to see morbidly obese men live a long life.

 

[sunlover1]

Yes plus there is much more christ love in your words than mine on this topic I fear. My heart is to help people see they aren’t trapped in this sad and horrible physical issue like they think. I think it’s because I spent 10 years being obese and unhealthy and it dragged me down physically and emotionally and spiritually and when the Lord delivered me from it and I lost all the weight I can see more clearly the lie in all of this. Because it’s important that Christians understand this stuff is from the devil. Something that gives us diabetes, heart issues, energy issues, and kills us prematurely is not from God. Obesity is actually from Satan and he has a chokehold on the Christians in my country who are passive on the issue...but I still think I was too harsh

prayer and fasting ...
I mean you pray and fast.
God will give you the answer for how you can help your parent.
And or what He will do.
And He can indeed help them.
They have no idea what a blessing they have in you.

I've recently been finding that these sort of things fall more under the
things that I have to take out my sword and fight for.
So, imo, do all three.
Pray, fast, and wield that sword!
HIYA!
Wait,
En Guard!

 

[GaveMeJoy]

prayer and fasting ...
I mean you pray and fast.
God will give you the answer for how you can help your parent.
And or what He will do.
And He can indeed help them.
They have no idea what a blessing they have in you.

I've recently been finding that these sort of things fall more under the
things that I have to take out my sword and fight for.
So, imo, do all three.
Pray, fast, and wield that sword!
HIYA!
Wait,
En Guard!

I like you and what you say. Thank you for your words

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If you have church discipline for obesity, you should also have one for smoking, being lazy, gossiping and other bad things.

There is. The unrepentant can be put out of the church.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

There is. The unrepentant can be put out of the church.

Yes but in most churches it’s only used for unrepentant marital infidelity even though that is not what the scripture teaches. Any persistent unrepentant sin that is addressed by the church leadership and the church member refused to acknowledge should have a final resolution in being removed from the church after all other avenues for bringing the person to repentence are exhausted. This is a last ditch effort to draw them back into true fellowship with the Lord.

 

[Strong in Him]

The scripture literally says it is the elders job to give the wake up call of church discipline to unrepentant church members and not even eat with them.

Scripture does not say that being fat, or obese, is a sin.
If the church elders thought that it was, and that it was any of their business to judge, they SHOULD eat with an obese person, to monitor their food intake.
Wonder how many church members they would lose if that were to happen?

So like, why do American Christians pretend the whole concept of church discipline is only for people who have affairs?

No idea; I'm not American.

I just don’t get it. If someone is sinning, you go to them and they won’t repent, you take the elders and they won’t repent, then you Have to do the drastic step of church discipline with the goal of repentence.

Being overweight is not a sin for which repentance is demanded.

I guess people keep forgetting the OP is talking about people morbidly obese that’s 100 pounds overweight. I literally can’t imagine how some of these people can say it’s a “slow metabolism.” It’s abject gluttony.

It may be in many cases, but not all.
A person's weight is a personal thing; it's rude to comment on it and not our place to judge. As I said, the only person, outside of family, who could get away with it, would be a GP.

There is no medical condition in the universe that can make you 100 pounds overweight.

Yet only this week I read of someone who went to a slimming group, was thought to be cheating because she put weight on and gained 17 stone in weight before being diagnosed with Cushing's disease. This might be an extreme, and rare case, as Cushing's disease itself is rare. But it contradicts your "no medical condition in the universe" statement. People can also gain weight with an under-active thyroid or a tumour - maybe not 100 pounds, it depends how quickly it is diagnosed or spotted. There is also a condition called Prada Willi syndrome where a person cannot stop eating - and not only food.
So there ARE medical conditions, and drugs like steroids, that cause weight gain. We don't know the reasons for someone's gain in weight, so it's not for us to judge.

These people are often too fat to even feed themselves and they have full time enablers who work and buy them and cook them and feed them massive amounts of food. It’s the epitome of gluttony to be 100 pounds overweight

It MAY be - it may be due to a condition that you know nothing about.
Even overeating/using food for comfort can be a symptom of something else.

It’s the epitome of gluttony to be 100 pounds overweight and it needs to be called exactly what it is not protected by well meaning Christians. That’s not love.

It's not love to go up to someone you don't know, call them out on their weight, say they are sinners and demand that the elders/church leaders discipline them.

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes but in most churches it’s only used for unrepentant marital infidelity even though that is not what the scripture teaches. Any persistent unrepentant sin that is addressed by the church leadership and the church member refused to acknowledge should have a final resolution in being removed from the church after all other avenues for bringing the person to repentence are exhausted. This is a last ditch effort to draw them back into true fellowship with the Lord.

Are you saying that someone who is overweight, even obese, cannot have true fellowship with the Lord?
That's nonsense.