Church age-Clearly defined in prophecy!

[Charlesinflorida]

The "Church age" began with the outpouring of the Ruach HaKodesh on the feast of Shavuot in Jerusalem just 50 days after the crucifixion of Yeshua. It was the fulfillement of many pophecies that spoke of a time when Adonai would inhabit his people in a special way. In the prophecies of Joel, the beginning of this age is marked for us.

Joel 2: JOEL 2:28 "And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.

JOEL 2:29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.



Everyone should recognise this as the prophecy that Shimon Kepha (Peter) quotes before the multitudes in Jerusalem in Acts 2. In it we have the revelation or confirmation by the moving of the Spirit in Kepha that this prophecy was being fulfilled. Now notice that the end of the prophecy has not yet taken place. It hasn't because it is a description of THE CLOSE of this age when the Lord draws the nations down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. This is Armageddon. (by actual location and by description we know them to be the same.) Now I want you to see that the primary sign of that CLOSING as he draws the nations to Armageddon and the end of the church age is a one time celestial event, that no man can explain through science or any other means. The sun and the moon shall be darkened and shall no longer give her light.


JOEL 2:30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.

JOEL 2:31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

JOEL 2:32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the LORD will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the LORD has said,
among the survivors
whom the LORD calls.

JOEL 3:1 "In those days and at that time,
when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,

JOEL 3:2 I will gather all nations
and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat.*
There I will enter into judgment against them
concerning my inheritance, my people Israel,
for they scattered my people among the nations
and divided up my land.


Now lets see what the the Lord says about the time of his return when he comes to gather his own, the ones who have trusted him in faith:

MT 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

How about Isaiah?

IS 24: [21] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. [22] And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. [23] Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

This is again the time of Armageddon when har-Satan (the host of the high one on high, the fallen angels) are judged along with the kings of the earth. And we see the sun and moon are ashamed and do not give their liht. But what of the believers in that day?

Is 26: ISA 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. [21] For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Does yohannan confrim this in the Revelation?

Rev 6: [12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Yes, this again is the time of Gods wrath, when the armies (Kings) of the earth are drawn to Armageddon to be judged. It is marked by the sun and moon being darkened, and is also the time that the "church age" ends. It is the second coming when Yeshua comes with the angles and gathers the dead and the living who are his and then goes on to judge the kings and Antichrist at armageddon. This is the time of the rapture. There is one continuous flow of salvation through faith in messiah Yeshua from the begining of Joels prophecy on Shavuot, until its close as the battle of armageddon unfolds.

Charles in Florida

 

[sojeru]

the church age does not begin at shavuot- for shavuot is not for gentiles...as for the believers of messiah from the Jews, yes, this was their beginning...however, when was the beginning of the gentiles in the belief of the messiah?

 

[Godz Marine]

Charles,

Why is it the outpouring of God's Spirit the beginning of the church age? Joel prophecies it is for all flesh, or people, but didn't Christ also say that He came to be crucified for God so loved the world? Wouldn't "world" indicate all flesh also?

If so then this would mean that the church age started at the time of the crucifixion. The renting of the curtain in the temple was sign that old things had passed away and the time of the new had come? Didn't this begin the time for which anyone could come before the Father by the blood of Christ?

I would think that since the fulfillment of the law (OT) was completed at the crucifixtion then the church age would have started then also. It is just that it hadn't been empowered by the Spirit which is what Joel was speaking of and as Jesus foretold in Acts 1:8 and again by Peter in Acts 2.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

the church age does not begin at shavuot- for shavuot is not for gentiles...as for the believers of messiah from the Jews, yes, this was their beginning...however, when was the beginning of the gentiles in the belief of the messiah?

Hello Sojeru,

Read your own signature statement. One God, one people. Paul tell us that there is no longer Greek or Jew, Male or female, bond or free. We are all one people before God. We are known only through our faith. Class and ethnicity do not matter to God. Shavuot is not only for the Jews. The church thouhout the world recognize this feast, (Pentecost) as the beginning of the church. Peter speaks of this event in Jerusalem as the beginning of something promised in Gods plan. If we go back to the Tanahk we find that it is the inclusion of the nations into the people of God that has been pomised since Avaham.

Charles in Florida

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Charles,

Why is it the outpouring of God's Spirit the beginning of the church age? Joel prophecies it is for all flesh, or people, but didn't Christ also say that He came to be crucified for God so loved the world? Wouldn't "world" indicate all flesh also?

If so then this would mean that the church age started at the time of the crucifixion. The renting of the curtain in the temple was sign that old things had passed away and the time of the new had come? Didn't this begin the time for which anyone could come before the Father by the blood of Christ?

I would think that since the fulfillment of the law (OT) was completed at the crucifixtion then the church age would have started then also. It is just that it hadn't been empowered by the Spirit which is what Joel was speaking of and as Jesus foretold in Acts 1:8 and again by Peter in Acts 2.

Marine,

If you do not recognize Pentecost as the begining of the hurch age, then you are in disagreement with every other theologian throughout the last 2000 years. You ask, "Why is it the outpouring of God's Spirit the beginning of the church age?" Because this was the demarcation point where the prophetic age ended and the spirit began to dwell in every man who has faith. This is a priviledge that only the prophets and select kings were given in the past. The believers in Messiah, those who trust in him with faith are the only recipients of this gift. The gift of the spirit are given to all believers, (the church) not just to the Jews. What was the evidence of salvation being extended to the Gentiles? Because the spirit fell upon them, just as He had the Jews in the beginning. It is true that all the first curch were Jews. Certainly because ths was Gods plan that throuh Abrahams seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed. You can not separate being saved from being empowered. There is no foundaion for it. When we accept Yeshua for the covering of our sins, we have salvation and the spirit.

"God so loved the world" Yes! it is all of creation that was redeemed. Have you not read in the scriptures. The animals, the plants, and even the planet were redeemed for all had fallen under the curse.

You know Marine, I have provided you with some powerful and undeniably evidence about the fact that the Lord says in his word that the gahering of the believers, the raptue takes place only once and at the return of the Lord, the second coming. And you are willing to re-write any doctrine or fact to make it fit thepretrib rapture theory. You would allow Jewish hatred, antisemetism, dispensationalism, and replacement theology to take hold for the sake of defending this pretrib theory. I have encountered this many times in the past. Here is what it usually comes down to:
Most, a vast and overwhelming majority, of pretrib believers hold to the idea that you must believe in the pretrib doctrine, and defend it with your life to maintain it, otherwise you will not be allowed to take part in it. You will be "Left Behind." Do you see what witchcraft this is. It controls your thoughts and power to reason. Your salation is not the same as the redemption of your body. Gosh, multitudes of believers have died in the past, and they will have resurrection in that day. Thousands of believers die every year for their faith. 146,000 died last year alone for their faith and will not be "pretrib raptured". But they will be gathered when the Lord comes, and they "before those who remain and are alive". YES! The dead are raised first, then we who remain will be caught up with them. And all of this in a moment of ime, symultaneously. We are still here, and the dead have not been raised. We will be taken up together.

Your faith must not be in the "HOPE OF THE RAPTURE".

Your faith must be in the LORD, who can raise you from the dead, or change you while you are alive. Your faith must not be in the pretrib rapture, but in the Lords power to redeem those who he has chosen.

Do you realize that even people who do not believe in this pretrib rapture will none the less be resurrected or if alive at the Lords return will be glorified, changed into immortal beings. Because we are the Lords property and he has made a decision to do this.

So you might ask,"why be so determined to disprove the pretribrapture?" Because belief in it is causes people to take liberty with scripture using it anyway they see fit to make a case for anything they want to believe. They begin to practice things that even border on the occult, like numerology, bible codes, self-enduced visions ans dreams, anything to verify their inclusion in this rapture and to predict when it will take place. I know because I was deceived by this foul doctrine myself. I was part of the mess and was blind to the truth. Then by the urging of the spirit, I began to look at the popular writers and see if I could read the scriptures that they quoted and come up with the same results. What I found was that many scripures had been taken completely out of context or even reworded to make their point. As I dug deeper, I could not find a thing that was scriptural, not a shred.
SO I began my own study, by repenting of the alse doctrines I had been snared in, and WOW what a difference. The word came alive. All the Old testament and New agre about the plan of God. From front to Back it is the same and that means that God is not the fickle -wishy -washy God that modern theologains make him out to be, but he is consistant, and never changes! What a comfort this is. God does not lie, nor does he change his mind. He is right and accurate. And he has a redemption plan that includes all of Israel as well as the Gentiles.

Please Marine do not take this as a rebuke. It is not a rebuke, but an appeal to your inner heart. Is God a liar? Was he surprised that the Messiah was rejected by the temple auhority? Didn't He say from the begining that the Messiah would be rejected and killed? Didn't he say that the nations of the earth would also be made to be his people?

Charles in Florida

 

[sojeru]

Greetings your Excellency Adon Charles,

If i would be going against every theologian as Marine is, that is fine with me- I dont follow most theologians- and if you speak of those that are christian ( no offense to anyone here) then I dont follow any.

And indeed, we are one people- does it mean that there is no difference in the functions of a woman and a man? does the woman now have the private organs of a man, and man have the private organs and features of a woman?

NO...so the scripture means that we are one in spirit- if we sin against G-D we have a problem, we all need G-D, and all have sinned against G-D in some way or another.
And I know that you know this well- which is why i do not understand why you responded in the way that you have. However, you do as you wish, no?

That means that there is still an existing difference between gentile(greek) and Jew.
Do non-Jews follow the authority of Rabbi's and practice Judaism like Jews do?
easy answer is no.
And if there is one- he is converting to be a Jew.

However, if you do not agree, then hey, what else can I tell you?
But any way, I just wanted to share what I wrote above in post number 2 to have you think.

And as I said, the feasts are NOT for the gentiles, however, a gentile can participate in them, but it is a limited participation.

shalom u'bracha

 

[Boanerge]

How did you come to this understanding?

So the rejected doctrine is:

(1) Before the Great Tribulation, the Church (which includes Greek and Jew) will be lifted up.

right?
BTW this should be in the ENd Times forums

 

[sojeru]

greetings Boanerge,

Im not sure to whom your post is reffering to, But I will take the liberty to respond.
1) what "understanding" are you speaking of?

and 2) in the bible(greek) there is no such thing as a church.
there is the word ikklesia- which means community- the same is the word synagogue/synagoga- the word church in its original could have meant this- however, now its used to make a seperation between church and synagogue.

now, lets use proper Terminology,
The Ikklesia (in spanish Iglesia) will remain to bring forth exactly what HaShem our G-d needs to bring.
And that is that all Jews will be in the land of Yisrael.
The gentiles of the community will engage in such a feat and the world will fight all of us.
The beginning of the ALIYAH (the taking up- not rapture) will begin soon enough to the land. There will be a transformation- the dead will rise and all.

shalom u'bracha

 

[Boanerge]

I was speaking to Charles. But do you, sojeru, agree with Charles?

So there will be no "taking up" before the great tribulation?

Will this occur afterwards? After The sun darkens and the moon turns to blood?

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Hello Boanerge,
Here is something that a lot of people do not realize. The old testament and the new testament agree totally concerning the endtimes. There is a single event that you can use to synchronize all end times prophecy. When you do,things begin to make sense like never before.

When you have time, interest or bordem enough, try this article
http://home.earthlink.net/~cfryalls/rapturecoming.html

I am afraid that there is no secret special snatching away of anybody before the Lord returns in Glory. Even Paul states this very clearly in several places. Paul and Yeshua (Jesus) are in total agreement about this. If it were not so, then Paul would be a false prophet. Yeshua says, MT 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And Paul speaks of the time that we will enter the Lords rest, I Thes 1:[6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; [7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe

What about the revelation? We can see this same event, Rev 6:[12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Guess what else happens at this time? The two witnesses are raised up alive again, the 144,000 witnesses are given glorified bodies AND the resurrection of the righteous dead and the glorification (rapture) of the living believers.

It is all made clearer in the article I have given you a link to, as I have laid out the scriptures in parellel fashion.
I also have a compilation of question that I have been asked over the years of running a website and discussion forum. It is loaded with scripture.

http://home.earthlink.net/~cfryalls/quickquestions.html

Charles in Florida

 

[Godz Marine]

Marine,

If you do not recognize Pentecost as the begining of the hurch age, then you are in disagreement with every other theologian throughout the last 2000 years. You ask, "Why is it the outpouring of God's Spirit the beginning of the church age?" Because this was the demarcation point where the prophetic age ended and the spirit began to dwell in every man who has faith. This is a priviledge that only the prophets and select kings were given in the past. The believers in Messiah, those who trust in him with faith are the only recipients of this gift. The gift of the spirit are given to all believers, (the church) not just to the Jews.

First off, there are many, many theologians who I do not agree with. They think too much, applying their own understanding and reasoning to God which in all actuallity, and according to scripture, leads to deception. There are those of the opinion that the gifts are dead. And those who feel that there is no literal eternal torment. There are those who say the Messiah has yet to come. And the list goes on and on. One can waste their time studing the "theories" of these men or one can simply study the Word for themselves thus having no need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth!

Was not this outpouring of the Spirit dependant upon the New Covenant of the blood of Christ??? Yes for it was imparitive that Christ be cucified and resurrected so that the Father couls send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. This out pouring was provided at the cross.

What was the evidence of salvation being extended to the Gentiles? Because the spirit fell upon them, just as He had the Jews in the beginning. It is true that all the first curch were Jews. Certainly because ths was Gods plan that throuh Abrahams seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed. You can not separate being saved from being empowered. There is no foundaion for it. When we accept Yeshua for the covering of our sins, we have salvation and the spirit.

When was this salvation provided??Again, at the cross, not when it was observed.

You know Marine, I have provided you with some powerful and undeniably evidence about the fact that the Lord says in his word that the gahering of the believers, the raptue takes place only once and at the return of the Lord, the second coming. And you are willing to re-write any doctrine or fact to make it fit thepretrib rapture theory. You would allow Jewish hatred, antisemetism, dispensationalism, and replacement theology to take hold for the sake of defending this pretrib theory. I have encountered this many times in the past. Here is what it usually comes down to:
Most, a vast and overwhelming majority, of pretrib believers hold to the idea that you must believe in the pretrib doctrine, and defend it with your life to maintain it, otherwise you will not be allowed to take part in it. You will be "Left Behind." Do you see what witchcraft this is. It controls your thoughts and power to reason. Your salation is not the same as the redemption of your body. Gosh, multitudes of believers have died in the past, and they will have resurrection in that day. Thousands of believers die every year for their faith. 146,000 died last year alone for their faith and will not be "pretrib raptured". But they will be gathered when the Lord comes, and they "before those who remain and are alive". YES! The dead are raised first, then we who remain will be caught up with them. And all of this in a moment of ime, symultaneously. We are still here, and the dead have not been raised. We will be taken up together.

First off, don't hide behind the "anti-Jew" out cry, it is unbecoming. If Israel was dealt with in the first 69 weeks then as it is written Israel will be dealt with in the 70th week also. Those Jews who turn their hearts towards the Messiah as they should become a part of the church and are no longer a Jew as you, myself, and others have clearly pointed out.

Second, I do not feel in any way to defend unto the death the "pre-trib" view nor do I teach or preach it to be thus and so. As I have said elsewhere one's view of the rapture is in no way detrimental to one's salvation. If I am wrond I will simply be here for when it does occur.

Third, I do not in any or imply to rewrite scripture. However some doctrines could stand to br revised! It seems you want to rewrite scripture so as to include the church in the Tribulation period that has been reserved for Israel. You have yet to make clear why an obedient church must go through the retribution that has been reserved for disobedient Israel.

Your faith must not be in the "HOPE OF THE RAPTURE".

Calm down. My faith is in Christ and Christ alone.

Your faith must be in the LORD, who can raise you from the dead, or change you while you are alive. Your faith must not be in the pretrib rapture, but in the Lords power to redeem those who he has chosen.

See above.

Do you realize that even people who do not believe in this pretrib rapture will none the less be resurrected or if alive at the Lords return will be glorified, changed into immortal beings. Because we are the Lords property and he has made a decision to do this.

Yes, and won't some be surprized if the pre-trib view is true!

So you might ask,"why be so determined to disprove the pretribrapture?" Because belief in it is causes people to take liberty with scripture using it anyway they see fit to make a case for anything they want to believe. They begin to practice things that even border on the occult, like numerology, bible codes, self-enduced visions ans dreams, anything to verify their inclusion in this rapture and to predict when it will take place. I know because I was deceived by this foul doctrine myself. I was part of the mess and was blind to the truth. Then by the urging of the spirit, I began to look at the popular writers and see if I could read the scriptures that they quoted and come up with the same results. What I found was that many scripures had been taken completely out of context or even reworded to make their point. As I dug deeper, I could not find a thing that was scriptural, not a shred.

No, I wouldn't ask that. I simply ask that you provide sound biblical doctrine and scripture to support your claims. I am concerned with the truth moreso than motive in the discussion of the end times. I too have studied and errancy just as you have. However I center my studies on the scriptures
themselves and not so much as what others have written concerning them. I too have spent many hours seeking the wisdom of God concerning this issue and have received much revelzation concerning it from the Holy Spirit.

I have never stood on my soap box and proclaimed, "I'm right and your wrong." I have never become weary of your proclamations. I have become a bit annoyed at your ability to completely avoid answering certain questions and then starting a new thread but I cannot control that.

I have found that you do not like to have your claims challenged which is intriging to me. I have found you to be very knowledgable in the scriptures which is why I am perplexed at why you seem to become ruffled when challenged.

Please Marine do not take this as a rebuke. It is not a rebuke, but an appeal to your inner heart. Is God a liar? Was he surprised that the Messiah was rejected by the temple auhority? Didn't He say from the begining that the Messiah would be rejected and killed? Didn't he say that the nations of the earth would also be made to be his people?

I don't see it as a rebuke. I see it as someone who is as passionate in what they believe as I am. Of course God is not a liar and a bit out of line for you to imply I would think so. As for the rest, yes. And since we are talking about things God knew and proclaimed, didn't He say that there is one week yet to be fulfilled which will bring the retribution of Israel's rebellion? It seems as though you wish for the church to suffer along with Israel, why?

 

[Godz Marine]

Marine,

If you do not recognize Pentecost as the begining of the hurch age, then you are in disagreement with every other theologian throughout the last 2000 years. You ask, "Why is it the outpouring of God's Spirit the beginning of the church age?" Because this was the demarcation point where the prophetic age ended and the spirit began to dwell in every man who has faith. This is a priviledge that only the prophets and select kings were given in the past. The believers in Messiah, those who trust in him with faith are the only recipients of this gift. The gift of the spirit are given to all believers, (the church) not just to the Jews. What was the evidence of salvation being extended to the Gentiles? Because the spirit fell upon them, just as He had the Jews in the beginning. It is true that all the first curch were Jews. Certainly because ths was Gods plan that throuh Abrahams seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed. You can not separate being saved from being empowered. There is no foundaion for it. When we accept Yeshua for the covering of our sins, we have salvation and the spirit.

"God so loved the world" Yes! it is all of creation that was redeemed. Have you not read in the scriptures. The animals, the plants, and even the planet were redeemed for all had fallen under the curse.

You know Marine, I have provided you with some powerful and undeniably evidence about the fact that the Lord says in his word that the gahering of the believers, the raptue takes place only once and at the return of the Lord, the second coming. And you are willing to re-write any doctrine or fact to make it fit thepretrib rapture theory. You would allow Jewish hatred, antisemetism, dispensationalism, and replacement theology to take hold for the sake of defending this pretrib theory. I have encountered this many times in the past. Here is what it usually comes down to:
Most, a vast and overwhelming majority, of pretrib believers hold to the idea that you must believe in the pretrib doctrine, and defend it with your life to maintain it, otherwise you will not be allowed to take part in it. You will be "Left Behind." Do you see what witchcraft this is. It controls your thoughts and power to reason. Your salation is not the same as the redemption of your body. Gosh, multitudes of believers have died in the past, and they will have resurrection in that day. Thousands of believers die every year for their faith. 146,000 died last year alone for their faith and will not be "pretrib raptured". But they will be gathered when the Lord comes, and they "before those who remain and are alive". YES! The dead are raised first, then we who remain will be caught up with them. And all of this in a moment of ime, symultaneously. We are still here, and the dead have not been raised. We will be taken up together.

Your faith must not be in the "HOPE OF THE RAPTURE".

Your faith must be in the LORD, who can raise you from the dead, or change you while you are alive. Your faith must not be in the pretrib rapture, but in the Lords power to redeem those who he has chosen.

Do you realize that even people who do not believe in this pretrib rapture will none the less be resurrected or if alive at the Lords return will be glorified, changed into immortal beings. Because we are the Lords property and he has made a decision to do this.

So you might ask,"why be so determined to disprove the pretribrapture?" Because belief in it is causes people to take liberty with scripture using it anyway they see fit to make a case for anything they want to believe. They begin to practice things that even border on the occult, like numerology, bible codes, self-enduced visions ans dreams, anything to verify their inclusion in this rapture and to predict when it will take place. I know because I was deceived by this foul doctrine myself. I was part of the mess and was blind to the truth. Then by the urging of the spirit, I began to look at the popular writers and see if I could read the scriptures that they quoted and come up with the same results. What I found was that many scripures had been taken completely out of context or even reworded to make their point. As I dug deeper, I could not find a thing that was scriptural, not a shred.
SO I began my own study, by repenting of the alse doctrines I had been snared in, and WOW what a difference. The word came alive. All the Old testament and New agre about the plan of God. From front to Back it is the same and that means that God is not the fickle -wishy -washy God that modern theologains make him out to be, but he is consistant, and never changes! What a comfort this is. God does not lie, nor does he change his mind. He is right and accurate. And he has a redemption plan that includes all of Israel as well as the Gentiles.

Please Marine do not take this as a rebuke. It is not a rebuke, but an appeal to your inner heart. Is God a liar? Was he surprised that the Messiah was rejected by the temple auhority? Didn't He say from the begining that the Messiah would be rejected and killed? Didn't he say that the nations of the earth would also be made to be his people?

Charles in Florida

Because the spirit fell upon them, just as He had the Jews in the beginning. It is true that all the first curch were Jews.

First church??? Acts 2, the upper room which housed the 120 could well have included a gentile or two for they followed Jesus also for He ministered to all. Admittingly, Christ's meaasage was directed at the Jew but He never rejected anyone.

Certainly because ths was Gods plan that throuh Abrahams seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed.

Your viem of Abrahams seed and the majority of the church, including mine differ on who the seed is. It appears that you are implying that it is because of the Jews that the nations are blessed but we can see in the New Testament that the Jews rejected Christ, the seed which brought blessings to the nations of the earth. I cannot see how Israel blessed the nations of the world by crucifying Christ. I admit, God still has His hand on Israel and many technological and other advances has come from her, bringing blessing to the world but none equal to the blessing we received through Christ.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Quote Marine: First church??? Acts 2, the upper room which housed the 120 could well have included a gentile or two for they followed Jesus also for He ministered to all. Admittingly, Christ's meaasage was directed at the Jew but He never rejected anyone.

Coneilis, the centurion was the first Gentile to be included in the outpouring of the spirit as recorded in scripture, as his case was the proof of the inclusion of the Gentiles. The 120 who were gathered were Jews, as this very gathering was Shavuot, the time when a Jewish person renews his covenant relationship to Torah. Torah was given given in sinai on Shavuot. The old covenant and the New covenant (Church age) were given on the same feast day. Again another proof that Pentecost is the begining of the new covenant. This is why the new believers who are given a mission to evangelize are told to wait until the spirit comes to them.

Look at the comparisons of the first Pentecost and this one at the time of Yeshua. First one, Torah given on stone, men each hear the voice of God as a wind and with flames of fire, 5000 die for unbelief.

In the times of Yeshua, the Toah is written on mens heats, men each here the word of God in his own language, spirit comes down as wind and fire, 5000 believe and are saved.

Both of these events take place on the same day, Shavuot, (Pentecost). The new covenant begins on Shavuot.
Do you see the importance of understanding things Hebraically?

Charles in Florida.