Chronology of Revelation

Douggg · Jul 31, 2018

Revealing Times said:
Everyone knows the Last Half of the of the 70th week is 1260 days, and it correlates with the Beasts 42 Month reign and Israel Fleeing Judea for 1260 days, but the Two-witnesses 1260 days do not parallel the Beasts 42 month reign, the Two-witnesses die during the Second (2nd) Woe, the Beast dies at the 7th Vial. Now lets compare those two episodes.

Therein lies the problem with your scheduled of events. On one hand you say the Last half of the 70 week is 1260 days.

But the 1260 days - which is an exact expression - of the two witnesses is not the last half. While the 42 months which is not exact number of days expression is the Last Half, you say.

So you attribute 42 months as the 1260 days second half
But the 1260 days of the two witnesses as not being the second half, but an overlap.

Summary of your timing...
1260 days, exact to the day expression, is the first half.
1260 days, exact two witnesses time, is not the second half, but an overlap
42 months, not exact in days, is the second half.

________________________________________________________
Here's what it should be, RT....

1260 days, exact to the day expression, is the first half
1260 days, exact to the day two witnesses' time, is the first half

3.5 days, exact days the two witnesses bodies are dead, the beginning of the second half.
42 months, not exact in days, but a little less of 1256.5 days left, is in the second half.

iamlamad · Jul 31, 2018

Revealing Times said:
Of course if this is the way it was intended (and it is) then you are just not comprehending it correctly and its throwing everything else off kilter, all because you can't be taught by God once you get an idea in your head, its like an obstacle that God then has to try and overcome to teach you His ways. I see this in a lot of people, I was like that for years myself. Then I understood why the Pharisees couldn't learn from the Great Master Jesus but simple fishermen and tax collectors could.

I wanted to know why God called me to prophecy, but I never got past a certain point, then the Holy Spirit taught me the above lesson and said, lose all your understandings and ASK ME, now things just come out of nowhere because I never rely on OLD UNDERSTANDINGS passed down from men. So when I read that the Saints seen with White Robes on in Rev. 7:9-17 came out of the Great Tribulation, I didn't just say, Oh, they came out of what we call the GREAT TRIBULATION, even though I knew it didn't fit my pre trib rapture understanding, so I QUESTIONED IT as I now QUESTION EVERYTHING, and lo and behold, I understood John was speaking about the 2000 year Church Age Period as the GREAT 2000 YEAR Tribulation. This is how God can teach us, if we let Him. So we aren't rearranging it, you just think we are.

I mean to mean this is 5th grade stuff as per the Chronological order,I knew that it wasn't in order long before I changed the way I look at things. Its just obvious. None of your timeline works, the whole 7th Trumpet thing beyond me, the Middle of the Week is when the 7 Vials start, that just way out there brother.

I don't buy your premise at all, you just take it for granted it seems that you are correct, and all because you think that Rev. 11 is a part of the chronological order. Its not.

Rev. 11:1-2 has nothing to do with the Anti-Christ per se. Of course it covers most of his rule as the Beast but its not specifically referring to the Beast on Rev. 11.

Rev. 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Most people I do not think come anywhere close to understanding what this actually means. This is a METAPHOR for who the Two-witnesses is to minister unto. MEASURE stands for go unto.......the Two-witnesses are ordered to go unto Israel only, or those that worship in the Temple and at the Alter....Do not go unto (LEAVE OUT THE COURT OUTSIDE) the Gentiles. The Rapture happens before the 70th week, the Gentiles are called during the Church age, but Jesus came ONLY unto the Jews in his ministry, we are thus back in that mode via the Two-witnesses. That is all that scripture means above, its not about the Anti-Christ. God is telling who the Two-witnesses are called to minister unto, nothing more, nothing less.

Of course its giving usthe start of the Two-witnesses ministry, thus the orders who to minister unto.

Everyone knows the Last Half of the of the 70th week is 1260 days, and it correlates with the Beasts 42 Month reign and Israel Fleeing Judea for 1260 days, but the Two-witnesses 1260 days do not parallel the Beasts 42 month reign, the Two-witnesses die during the Second (2nd) Woe, the Beast dies at the 7th Vial. Now lets compare those two episodes.

Rev. 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

So the Two-witnesses die during the 2nd Woe. But lets remember what the 2nd Woe actually was.

Rev. 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter. 13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. 20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

The 2nd Woe is above, its not really described in Rev. 11, its only vaguely mentioned we are just told that the "Beast" (Scarlet Beast/Apollyon) that came out of the Bottomless Pit (Apollyon) killed the Two-witnesses DURING the 2nd Woe which is above, in Rev. ch. 9. This shows that Rev. 11 is not a part of the Chronological order of Rev. that's why we see the 2nd Woe mentioned again in Rev 11, that should be obvious !! So the Two-witnesses die sometime during the Second Woe. Then in Rev. 11 we are AGAIN given a vague description of the 3rd Woe when it says the 7th Trumpet is sounded, but again we are given NO DETAILS, just like the 2nd Woe is not detailed in Rev. 11 because it not about the Woes, the chapter is about the Two-witnesses ministry from the beginning to the ending.

Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

We are told in verse 15 that the Seventh Angel Sounding basically ENDS Satan's Kingdom on earth, but likewise, we are given NO DETAILS of the 3rd Woe, that happens in chapter 16, meaning this is not a real time event. The 2nd Woe happened elsewhere as did the 3rd Woe. We are only given the facts of what the 7th Trumpet brings to pass, we are not given the details, now instead of me boring you with more scriptures, turn to Rev. ch. 16 and see the Vials poured, see the grievous sores that come upon mankind, the WHOLE Sea turns to blood this time and EVERY CREATURE in the sea dies. All the drinking waters turn to blood this time, the Sun scorches mankind with great heat and darkness falls so that they gnaw their tongues for pain.

Then the 6th Vial is poured out and Nations from all over the World are gathered to Armageddon, then Jesus lands as the 7th Vial is poured out.

All this will take time, the Two-witnesses die sometimes DURING the 2nd Woe, they then are raised from the dead, then an Earthquake happens, and the 2nd Woe ends. Then the 3rd Woe begins with the 7th Trumpet. The 7 Vials will take time, the 3 1/2 days many people keeps referencing has already passed before the 7th Trumpet sounds.

In my opinion the 7 Vials take 75 days, I get this from reverse engineering via Dan. ch. 12. Its VERY CLEAR, the Two-witnesses die before the Beast dies and it has nothing to do with the 3 1/2 days because the Two-witnesses are raised up before the 7th Trumpet sounds, thus before the 3rd Woe starts. This means the Two-witnesses HAVE to show up before the Beast does, no ifs and or buts about it. That means that Malachi 4:5-6, where it says Elijah will be sent BEFORE the great and dreadful Day of the Lord is spot on, the Two-witnesses are sent at the 1335 per Daniel 12, which is 75 days before the 1260, and the 1290 is the AoD, and the book of Daniel even says the AoD happens at the 1290, not the 1260 !!

So all of your measurements are off kilter, because you insist the book of Revelation is in Chronological order, even though it isn't.

Sorry, I don't take anything for granted. I just know the truth.

All I can say is, you are going to be SHOCKED when you find things will happen in the very order John wrote them! Do me a favor: look me up in heaven and we will compare notes then - after the fact!

In fact, I AGREE that the two witnesses die before the Beast dies. Since it is the Beast that kills them, this is logic 101. The two witnesses die just 3 1/2 days before the end of the week, but the Beast will die some unknown time later when Jesus returns in power for the great battle. See? We actually DO agree on one point!

the Two-witnesses are raised up before the 7th Trumpet sounds,
You only imagine that becuase you have not recoginzed that Rev. 11:4-13 is a parenthesis SIDE JOURNEY down the last half of the week with the two witnesses ONLY - and with NO chronology.

John is just before the exact midpoint in 11:1 (probably 3.5 days before) and the 7th trumpet IS the midpoint. There is NOT 1260 days between 11:3 and 11:15. It only appears so by a casual reader.

Ask yourself WHEN, according to Jesus, will those in Judea begin to flee? That fleeing is in 12:6. So back up verse by verse and see which real time event happens before 12:6. I find the 7th trumpet.

NO DETAILS of the 3rd Woe Not true at all. You just gave the answer and did not even know it.

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Revealing Times · Jul 31, 2018

iamlamad said:
What you are missing: 11:4 through 11:13 are a parenthesis! It may at first appear that they die before the 7th trumpet, but a parenthesis has no chronology. John is taking us on a SIDE journey down the last half of the week with the two witnesses only - written as a parenthesis. They die just 3 1/2 days before the end of the week. Don't doubt me on this!

The whole chapter is a Parenthesis or Parenthetical Citation, the 2nd Woe is in Rev. ch. 9 and the 3rd Woe is in Rev. 16. The chapter (Rev. 11) is not a part of the Chronological order of Revelation, the Two-witnesses show up before the First Seal is broken because the First Seal is the Midway point or the 1260 Event. You have to fudge what is say to make the 1260 days match, even though they don't, all a Parenthesis means is truths are given OUT OF ORDER, not false truths. The whole chapter is not a part of the order of the book of Revelation, the book is truth however, its given by Jesus, they die during the 2nd Woe, BEFORE the 3rd Woe, that a factoid.

iamlamad said:
Both are in their "OFFICES" for 1260 days.

This may not be true! One count is given in days and another in months. The day count MUST be accurate within a day, but a month count could be off that 1260 by a day. But then it could be exactly 1260 days. My point is, John does not tell us. My main point is, they are parallel days or the very same period of time - but the two witnesses begin a few days before the 42 months of the Beast. In this we are agreeing.

Each Month was 30 days, therefore 42 x 30 always = 1260 Days.

The Two-witnesses show up 75 days before the False Prophet, the 7th Vial lasts 75 Days.

iamlamad said:
Day 1..............................They die at the 2nd Woe = 1260 Days

WRONG! It may at first appear so, but 11:4 - 11:13 is a parenthesis with NO timing.
THIS is John's chronology:

11:1-2 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint (Man of sin arrives in Jerusalem)
11:3 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint (Two witnesses show up and begin)
11:15 exact midpoint (marked by the 7th trumpet)
12:6 a second or two after the exact midpoint (those in Judea begin to flee)

11:4 - 11:13 is a side journey down the last half of the week with the two witnesses.

The truth then is that they die just before the END of the week.

I am not wrong brother, you are trying to change the scriptures to make your theory work, that's not how biblical truths are brought out brother, we have to follow he facts where they lead us. The 7th Trumpet is not the Midway point, the First Seal, where the Anti-Christ comes forth is the Middle of the week. Rev. ch. 12 happens during the First Four Seals also.

The 1260 stars with the First Seal, Rev. 12 starts then, Rev. 13 starts then also, Rev. 17 starts then and Rev. 18 starts then. That is why getting it right is so important.

iamlamad said:
Beast Conquers Jerusalem Day 1.........................Beast dies at the 7th Vial = 1260 Days.
Sorry, but even this is in error. The beast dies when Jesus comes as in Rev. 19. This is AFTER the week has ended at the 7th vial. There are events that will take place BETWEEN the 7th vial that ends the week, and chapter 19 with His coming. One great event will be the marriage and supper.

Rev. 19 is a Parenthetical Citation, ONLY the Beast being thrown into the lake of fire in Rev. 19:20 has not already been told, but in Rev. 16:19, when Babylon falls.......it means the SAME THING The Beast Dies in Rev. 16 at Armageddon !! The Marriage Supper is Armageddon, didn't you know that brother ?

So Rev. 19 is Rev. 16, the Marriage Supper is Armageddon. Again, you need to look at the Seven Seals, Trumpets and Vials as the Chronological order, and everything else is added.

iamlamad said:
We don't know how much chronological time there is between the man of sin arriving in Jerusalem and the arrival of the two witness - and the time the Beast's 42 months begin. John does not tell us, UNLESS it is the 3 1/2 days between the two witnesses beginning their testimony and the 7th trumpet that reveals the Beast. John shows us that the Beast is killed when Jesus comes, and we don't know the time from the 7th vial to His coming - NO ONE knows the hour of His coming.

Perhaps the marriage and supper will take 30 days. It is only a guess.

(No arithmetic needed: only reading the text and believing it!)

The Two-witnesses arrive BEFORE the Day of the Lord.....Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

The Two-witnesses show up at the 1335, the False Prophet places the AoD in the Temple at the 1290, and the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem and becomes the Beast at he 1260 event.

1335 happens 45 days before the 1290 and 75 days before the 1260.

1335 is 1335 days until the Second Coming. (Two-witnesses = a Blessing)

1290 is 1290 days until the Second Coming. (The AoD)

1260 us 1260 days before the Second Coming. (Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem, becomes Beast)

No one knows THE RAPTURE Coming, that has ZERO to d with the Second Coming, we all know how to count, the Beast reigns for 1260 days.

The First Seal reveals the Beast, not the 7th Trumpet brother.

BABerean2 · Jul 31, 2018

Revealing Times said:
No one knows THE RAPTURE Coming, that has ZERO to d with the Second Coming,

.

Revealing Times · Jul 31, 2018

Douggg said:
Therein lies the problem with your scheduled of events. On one hand you say the Last half of the 70 week is 1260 days.

But the 1260 days - which is an exact expression - of the two witnesses is not the last half. While the 42 months which is not exact number of days expression is the Last Half, you say.

Why should it be ? The Holy Scriptures clearly tells us that Elijah will come before the great and Dreadful Day of the Lord. So the Two-witnesses come to turn Israel back to God and you think they are supposed to be given 3 1/2 days to do it with some odd math, that doesn't even add up, the 3 1/2 is STILL a part of the 2nd Woe, the 7th Trumpet is blown AFTER the Two-witnesses are taken to Heaven, an Hour later !!

The 7th Trumpet is not going to bring forth 7 Vials that last 3 1/2 days anyway, that is just trying to make it fit brother, it will not fit. The 7 Vials last 75 days, a couple of months and a half a month. The 1st Woe lasts 5 Months at least. The Assembling of Ships to the Middle East takes awhile to get to from America, like 4-6 weeks, to plan an invasion takes time. The 7th Trumpet is going to take 2 1/2 months to bring to pass, of from my calculations in Daniel, 75 days.

Douggg said:
So you attribute 42 months as the 1260 days second half
But the 1260 days of the two witnesses as not being the second half, but an overlap.

Summary of your timing...
1260 days, exact to the day expression, is the first half.
1260 days, exact two witnesses time, is not the second half, but an overlap
42 months, not exact in days, is the second half.

Of course God is not going to send the Two-witnesses to Israel, to turn Them back to God at the same time He allows a force to come forth Conquering Israel/Jews, that makes no sense brother. That is why the DIE at the 2nd Woe, and the Beast dies 75 days later at the 7th Vial, why you would think 7 Vials wouldn't take a fair amount of time is beyond me, the 1st Woe takes 5 Months at least. I can not even comprehend your thinking, the Two-witnesses show up BEFORE the Day of the Lord, which is the 1260 Event in the Middle of the Week. They die before the Beast dies, this is simple math. That is correct....since they show up BEFORE the Day of the Lord which is the EXACT CENTER of the 2520 days, why would anyone think their time starts at the MIDDLE OF THE WEEK?

Douggg said:
Here's what it should be, RT....

1260 days, exact to the day expression, is the first half
1260 days, exact to the day two witnesses' time, is the first half

3.5 days, exact days the two witnesses bodies are dead, the beginning of the second half.
42 months, not exact in days, but a little less of 1256.5 days left, is in the second half.

The Two-witnesses show up at the 1335..........the False Prophet sets up the AoD at the 1290...the Two-witnesses show up at the 1260.....The 1260 is the Middle of the Week or the day that the Day of the Lord begins, which lasts for 3.5 years.

The Second Half begins via the opening of the First Seal. The old calendar is 30 days per month.

iamlamad · Jul 31, 2018

Revealing Times said:
The whole chapter is a Parenthesis or Parenthetical Citation, the 2nd Woe is in Rev. ch. 9 and the 3rd Woe is in Rev. 16. The chapter (Rev. 11) is not a part of the Chronological order of Revelation, the Two-witnesses show up before the First Seal is broken because the First Seal is the Midway point or the 1260 Event. You have to fudge what is say to make the 1260 days match, even though they don't, all a Parenthesis means is truths are given OUT OF ORDER, not false truths. The whole chapter is not a part of the order of the book of Revelation, the book is truth however, its given by Jesus, they die during the 2nd Woe, BEFORE the 3rd Woe, that a factoid.

Each Month was 30 days, therefore 42 x 30 always = 1260 Days.

The Two-witnesses show up 75 days before the False Prophet, the 7th Vial lasts 75 Days.

I am not wrong brother, you are trying to change the scriptures to make your theory work, that's not how biblical truths are brought out brother, we have to follow he facts where they lead us. The 7th Trumpet is not the Midway point, the First Seal, where the Anti-Christ comes forth is the Middle of the week. Rev. ch. 12 happens during the First Four Seals also.

The 1260 stars with the First Seal, Rev. 12 starts then, Rev. 13 starts then also, Rev. 17 starts then and Rev. 18 starts then. That is why getting it right is so important.

Rev. 19 is a Parenthetical Citation, ONLY the Beast being thrown into the lake of fire in Rev. 19:20 has not already been told, but in Rev. 16:19, when Babylon falls.......it means the SAME THING The Beast Dies in Rev. 16 at Armageddon !! The Marriage Supper is Armageddon, didn't you know that brother ?

So Rev. 19 is Rev. 16, the Marriage Supper is Armageddon. Again, you need to look at the Seven Seals, Trumpets and Vials as the Chronological order, and everything else is added.

The Two-witnesses arrive BEFORE the Day of the Lord.....Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

The Two-witnesses show up at the 1335, the False Prophet places the AoD in the Temple at the 1290, and the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem and becomes the Beast at he 1260 event.

1335 happens 45 days before the 1290 and 75 days before the 1260.

1335 is 1335 days until the Second Coming. (Two-witnesses = a Blessing)

1290 is 1290 days until the Second Coming. (The AoD)

1260 us 1260 days before the Second Coming. (Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem, becomes Beast)

No one knows THE RAPTURE Coming, that has ZERO to d with the Second Coming, we all know how to count, the Beast reigns for 1260 days.

The First Seal reveals the Beast, not the 7th Trumpet brother.

My friend, you are as far off from truth as East is from West....and don't even know it!
But that is OK. When these things begin to happen, they will happen in the exact order John has written them in.

As I see it, John wrote "real time" events, where we see time moving forward, and then other events that are written as parentheses.

The main realtime events are the seals, the trumpets, the woes and the vials. They are easy to see.

Take 11: 1-2 for example: can we see timing there? Yes, of course. It is the man of sin arriving in Jerusalem with Gentile armies, which, I suspect, will be Muslim armies. After all, how can he enter the temple in Jerusalem unless he is IN Jerusalem.

He arrives just before the midpoint when he will enter the temple. The two witnesses arrive because HE just arrived. God knows what he is about to do, and told Paul to write it. So when the man of sin enters the temple and declare he is the God of the Jews, he is then REVEALED as the Beast of Rev. 13 and then those living in Judea that respect the words of Jesus will begin to flee, as we see in 12:6.

Therefore, the arrive of the man of sin with his armies who will trample the city for 42 months is very much a real-time event. Same with the arrival of the two witnesses who come because the man of sin came.

Sorry, they will NOT have to arrive before the Day of the Lord, because John the baptist fulfilled that prophecy. Jesus told the disciple this.

We will just disagree on almost everything, so no need to continue. Just know, when these things happen, they are going to follow the sequence Revelation shows us.

Douggg · Jul 31, 2018

Revealing Times said:
Why should it be ? The Holy Scriptures clearly tells us that Elijah will come before the great and Dreadful Day of the Lord. So the Two-witnesses come to turn Israel back to God and you think they are supposed to be given 3 1/2 days to do it with some odd math, that doesn't even add up, the 3 1/2 is STILL a part of the 2nd Woe, the 7th Trumpet is blown AFTER the Two-witnesses are taken to Heaven, an Hour later !!

The two witnesses testimony time coincides with the beginning of the 7 years. So I don't know why you are referring to3 1/2 days.

The second woe is not the two witnesses. The second woe was the second of three woes that John would be revealed. The second woe was the killing a third of man-kind by the large army.

In Revelation 11, after John is revealed about the two witnesses and their ascending to heaven, John was about to be revealed the third woe, which will be triggered by the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

The seventh trumpet sets the final phrase of God's plan to destroy Satan and his works, taking the kingdom of this world away from Satan's dominion.

The seventh trumpet sounds, and there is the war in the second heaven and Satan and his angels, his mystical kingdom of Babylon the Great is cast down to earth. Knowing he has but a little time left, Satan takes it out on the inhabitors of the earth - which is the third woe.

___________________________________________________________

RT, I am going to explain this to you in my own words, so you will get it.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

(my explanation: John, showing you the second woe about the killing of a third of mankind, we are done with that one. And now we going to show you the third woe now in just a few moments.)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

(my explanation: The seventh trumpet sounds to signal the final stages of God's planned destruction of Satan and his works, to take away his power and dominion over the nations. So the seventh trumpet sounds, and in Revelation 12, the war breaks out in the second heaven and Satan is cast down to earth, as God brings the hammer down on Satan's kingdom of mystery Babylon the great. Fallen, fallen, fallen. Likened as a great trading city in Revelation 18, that meets it's sudden end. )

iamlamad · Jul 31, 2018

Douggg said:
The two witnesses testimony time coincides with the beginning of the 7 years. So I don't know why you are referring to3 1/2 days.

It seems few people understand John's chronology and very little about the timing of the two witnesses. Since John wrote that they MUST testify for 1260 days, we can guess accuractly that must fit the first half - or the last half. But which?

The truth is, in 11:1 they are in heaven. In chapter 10 they are in heaven. In chapters 7-9 they are in heaven. You see, John mentions them the MOMENT they suddenly appear on earth. WHEN is that?

First, WHY do they show up right after verses 1-2? What is happening in 1-2 that brings the two witnesses to earth? I submit that in verses 1-2 the MAN OF SIN arrives in Jerusalem. He MUST get there for he will enter the temple there very soon. Six trumpets have already sounded, which means John is very late in the first half of the week. I submit that the two witnesses show up just 3 1/2 days BEFORE the exact midpoint, testify for 1260 days - which will take them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week, and then they are killed. they lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, then rise up with all the other Old Testament saints on "the last day."

That is where the 3 1/2 days comes from.

I think the man of sin will show up as in 11:1-2 with is armies - 3 1/2 days before the abomination. The two witnesses show up a second later. they come because he came. God knows he will be revealed as the beast when he enters the temple.

Revealing Times · Jul 31, 2018

iamlamad said:
Sorry, I don't take anything for granted. I just know the truth.

Well you don't here, that's a fact.

iamlamad said:
All I can say is, you are going to be SHOCKED when you find things will happen in the very order John wrote them! Do me a favor: look me up in heaven and we will compare notes then - after the fact!

Look, this is simple to me, its like me trying to teach a kid 2 + 2 = 4. I am not paying much attention to the protestations to be honest. I am of course saying that, as per what I understand to be true, until a person learns Prophecy he really can't understand it and not all people are called unto Prophecy, therein lies the problem.

iamlamad said:
In fact, I AGREE that the two witnesses die before the Beast dies. Since it is the Beast that kills them, this is logic 101. The two witnesses die just 3 1/2 days before the end of the week, but the Beast will die some unknown time later when Jesus returns in power for the great battle. See? We actually DO agree on one point!

Apollyon kills them, not the Anti-Christ who Conquers Jerusalem to become THE BEAST........Not the Red Dragon/Satan, but the Scarlet Colored Beast KILLS THEM !! The Scarlet Colored Beast doesn't have a BODY and Dan. 7:11 tells us the BEAST'S BODY is destroyed and cast into hell !!

The Two-Witnesses die long before the 7th Vial, to say the 7 Vials last 3 1/2 days strains credulity brother, its just not a fact, and I think you know that, but you have to FIT IT IN SOME WAY !!

Rev. 19 is not a REAL TIME EVENT........Rev. 16 ends it all, the Angel says IT IS DONE !! If you would step back, and let go of old ideas you might get there brother.

iamlamad said:
You only imagine that becuase you have not recoginzed that Rev. 11:4-13 is a parenthesis SIDE JOURNEY down the last half of the week with the two witnesses ONLY - and with NO chronology.

John is just before the exact midpoint in 11:1 (probably 3.5 days before) and the 7th trumpet IS the midpoint. There is NOT 1260 days between 11:3 and 11:15. It only appears so by a casual reader.

Ask yourself WHEN, according to Jesus, will those in Judea begin to flee? That fleeing is in 12:6. So back up verse by verse and see which real time event happens before 12:6. I find the 7th trumpet

The whole Chapter is a Parenthetical Citation. The Two-witnesses show 75 days before the Midway point. The Midway point is the First Seal. There is 1335 days total in Rev. 11, but it is NOT A PART of the chronological order of the book of Revelation.

Those in Judea FLEE in Rev. chapter 6, the First Seal is the Anti-Christ. Why you can't get that is beyond me.

iamlamad said:
NO DETAILS of the 3rd Woe Not true at all. You just gave the answer and did not even know it.

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

That' is not the 3rd Woe, jut because a Woe is called out doesn't mean its a part of the Three Trumpet Woes, you are hanging out in the weeds here brother. Satan is cast down during the Seals. The 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe !! After the 2nd Woe (SIXTH TRUMPET) you can ONLY HAVE the SEVENTH TRUMPET left, which is the 3rd Woe. Its has nothing to do with Rev. 12 which happens in the Middle of the week, the 7th Trumpet happens at the END of the 70th Week.

DavidPT · Jul 31, 2018

iamlamad said:
It seems few people understand John's chronology and very little about the timing of the two witnesses. Since John wrote that they MUST testify for 1260 days, we can guess accuractly that must fit the first half - or the last half. But which?

To me it seems easy enough to figure out by comparing a few things here.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Obviously these events can't happen at the same time. Per the former it is the 2W mainly in control of things. Per the latter it is the beast in control of things.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The 2w, regardless who one takes them to mean, are saints. If the 1260 days the 2W give their testimony is during the time the beast reigns for 42 months, that would mean the beast would be making war with them during the 1260 days, then overcoming them, yet we see here----And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them(Revelation 11:7)---is when the beast makes war with them. Apparently then, the 2W fulfill their 1260 days first, followed by another 42 months where the beast fulfills it's 3.5 years.

Douggg · Jul 31, 2018

iamlamad said:
First, WHY do they show up right after verses 1-2? What is happening in 1-2 that brings the two witnesses to earth? I submit that in verses 1-2 the MAN OF SIN arrives in Jerusalem. He MUST get there for he will enter the temple there very soon.

The person will have been in Jerusalem for 3 years 3 months, thereabouts, as the perceived messiah, (illegimate) King of Israel. The two witnesses will be testifying against him not being the true messiah the whole 3 years, 3 months - until he proves them right.

iamlamad said:
I submit that the two witnesses show up just 3 1/2 days BEFORE the exact midpoint, testify for 1260 days - which will take them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week, and then they are killed. they lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, then rise up with all the other Old Testament saints on "the last day."

You are putting the 3 1/2 days before the two witnesses begin to testify - when in text the 3 1/2 days is after they are killed.

Why is it so impossible to not just go with the straightforward explanation that the two witnesses begin their 1260 days testimony time as soon the person begins the 7 years, acting as if he is the messiah?

Douggg · Jul 31, 2018

DavidPT said:
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

David, that's the 42 months (1256.5 days) after the two witnesses are gone. The beast and his ten kings, who will rule with him, will be unimpeded by the two witnesses who will be gone (ascended to heaven) for those 42 months (1256.5 days).

Douggg · Jul 31, 2018

Revealing Times said:
Apollyon kills them, not the Anti-Christ who Conquers Jerusalem to become THE BEAST........Not the Red Dragon/Satan, but the Scarlet Colored Beast KILLS THEM !! The Scarlet Colored Beast doesn't have a BODY and Dan. 7:11 tells us the BEAST'S BODY is destroyed and cast into hell !!

The bible doesn't say the color of the beast who kills the two witnesses in Revelation 11.

It also doesn't say the color of the beast in the bottomless pit.

Douggg · Jul 31, 2018

DavidPT said:
Apparently then, the 2W fulfill their 1260 days first, followed by another 42 months where the beast fulfills it's 3.5 years.

What that text actually means is at near the end of the 1260 day testimony. It is not meaning 1260 days have passed and the beast makes war on them. We don't know exactly to the day, when the person comes back alive to become the beast. But it is some time before the AoD image is made of him.

It works out to be around 3 years 3 months into the 7 years. Which the AoD image will be placed in the temple on day 1185 (2520-1335 days) which is 75 days before the end of the two witnesses testimony on day 1260.

During that 75 days following the AoD placed in the temple, the Jews will be fleeing to the mountains, as the two witnesses provide covered battling with the beast - until he finally overcomes them and kills them.

DavidPT · Jul 31, 2018

Douggg said:
It is not meaning 1260 days have passed and the beast makes war on them.

It can't be less than 1260 days, can it?

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

And when they shall have finished their testimony---how can that not mean they have fulfilled all 1260 days, then sometime after that, whether it be days, weeks, months, years, or whatever, the beast eventually shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them? But the beast can't do this until he is first reigning 42 months. Meaning he has to be reigning first.

Douggg · Jul 31, 2018

DavidPT said:
It can't be less than 1260 days, can it?

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

And when they shall have finished their testimony---how can that not mean they have fulfilled all 1260 days, then sometime after that, whether it be days, weeks, months, years, or whatever, the beast eventually shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them? But the beast can't do this until he is first reigning 42 months. Meaning he has to be reigning first.

David, I understand what the words say and understand the rationale of your argument, but the nuance is that it means near the very end of their 1260 days testimony.

There is a similar circumstance in Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [David, these are the sixth seal events]

What that actually means is at the very end of the great tribulation, not after it is 100% complete. Because when the events of the sixth seal take place, there is going to be a lot of killing and persecution done, during the time the armies of the world assemble themselves at Armageddon and come down to Jerusalem to face off against Jesus (as insane as that will be). In addition, the great hailstones that flatten the cities around the world in the 7th bowl of wrath.

BABerean2 · Jul 31, 2018

Revealing Times said:
Well you don't here, that's a fact.

Look, this is simple to me, its like me trying to teach a kid 2 + 2 = 4. I am not paying much attention to the protestations to be honest. I am of course saying that, as per what I understand to be true, until a person learns Prophecy he really can't understand it and not all people are called unto Prophecy, therein lies the problem.

Apollyon kills them, not the Anti-Christ who Conquers Jerusalem to become THE BEAST........Not the Red Dragon/Satan, but the Scarlet Colored Beast KILLS THEM !! The Scarlet Colored Beast doesn't have a BODY and Dan. 7:11 tells us the BEAST'S BODY is destroyed and cast into hell !!

The Two-Witnesses die long before the 7th Vial, to say the 7 Vials last 3 1/2 days strains credulity brother, its just not a fact, and I think you know that, but you have to FIT IT IN SOME WAY !!

Rev. 19 is not a REAL TIME EVENT........Rev. 16 ends it all, the Angel says IT IS DONE !! If you would step back, and let go of old ideas you might get there brother.

The whole Chapter is a Parenthetical Citation. The Two-witnesses show 75 days before the Midway point. The Midway point is the First Seal. There is 1335 days total in Rev. 11, but it is NOT A PART of the chronological order of the book of Revelation.

Those in Judea FLEE in Rev. chapter 6, the First Seal is the Anti-Christ. Why you can't get that is beyond me.

That' is not the 3rd Woe, jut because a Woe is called out doesn't mean its a part of the Three Trumpet Woes, you are hanging out in the weeds here brother. Satan is cast down during the Seals. The 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe !! After the 2nd Woe (SIXTH TRUMPET) you can ONLY HAVE the SEVENTH TRUMPET left, which is the 3rd Woe. Its has nothing to do with Rev. 12 which happens in the Middle of the week, the 7th Trumpet happens at the END of the 70th Week.

The above sounds just like one of the "Left Behind" movies or books, which are a work of fiction...

Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural. Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the

post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197,
Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and its pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

.

Revealing Times · Aug 1, 2018

Douggg said:
The bible doesn't say the color of the beast who kills the two witnesses in Revelation 11.

Of course it does, you adding skills have just diminished.

Rev. 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Rev. 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev. 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev. 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

How is it you guys have been reading Revelation for years and you can't add these things up brother? Its not even that hard. Of course Apollyon is the Scarlet Colored Beast.

Douggg said:
It also doesn't say the color of the beast in the bottomless pit.

Line upon line, precept upon precept here a little there a little.

Add it up, it most certainly tells us who killed them, and thus the Scarlet Colored Beast is it.

Douggg · Aug 1, 2018

Revealing Times said:
Rev. 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

It doesn't say the color of the beast in the above text in Revelation 11.

BABerean2 · Aug 1, 2018

Douggg said:
It doesn't say the color of the beast in the above text in Revelation 11.

No. But if he ascends out of the pit in the future, it does tell us where he is now...

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