christmas, easter etc!

[AmyNMoore]

Don't you see the inherent contradiction in what you have said to PaladinValer?

On the one hand, you praise the intention that seeks to "look into" things in greater detail, and then declare that you are not afraid to admit when you are wrong.

Then, seemingly at the same time, because you have not shown that you looked into anything in greater detail, you affirm the exact same thing ("pagan" and "occult" links to holidays), and demand that PaladinValer should accept the fact that you doggedly refuse to refine your thinking on the matter ("agree to disagree").

i told him i looked into it and found that yes i was wrong, about telling things souly on tradition. so i looked into it further. i told him i was sorry.

them i stepped aside from the discuesstion and asked that we just agree to disagree.
my agurement i showed verses, i told him one place i got my info. and i also did searches on other sights just can't remember the web address. i have tried to prove my side the best i could. now i think it time to step back. i'm not going to do more harm than good here. so think what you will.

 

[AmyNMoore]

To all read, 'THE PLAN TRUTH ABOUT CHRISTMAS' by Herbert W. Armstrong
search on wikipedia easter christmas. how come it is that the world gets it, that these two holidays are of the world. but it's christians who continualy, think that as long as some is taught in the chruch it's okay. i'm sorry. but this is crazy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RdJvQg7YqI

 

[annier]

To all read, 'THE PLAN TRUTH ABOUT CHRISTMAS' by Herbert W. Armstrong
search on wikipedia easter christmas. how come it is that the world gets it, that these two holidays are of the world. but it's christians who continualy, think that as long as some is taught in the chruch it's okay. i'm sorry. but this is crazy.
Jim Staley - Truth or Tradition (HD) - Should Christians Celebrate Christmas and Easter? (Full) - YouTube

Sorry Amy, but staley IMO, is a confused man.

 

[annier]

To all read, 'THE PLAN TRUTH ABOUT CHRISTMAS' by Herbert W. Armstrong
search on wikipedia easter christmas. how come it is that the world gets it, that these two holidays are of the world. but it's christians who continualy, think that as long as some is taught in the chruch it's okay. i'm sorry. but this is crazy.
Jim Staley - Truth or Tradition (HD) - Should Christians Celebrate Christmas and Easter? (Full) - YouTube

Amy, This teacher is repeating error concerning the priesthood and it's courses. Please see the following.

"There were 24 courses of priests who served in the Temple, each serving one week until all 24 courses had served and then the rotation began again. The problem arises at the end of the year. 24 courses serving two weeks each gives a total of 48 weeks of service. However, the Jewish year is 50 weeks plus 4 days long. So on the 49th week, the rotation would begin again and the 1st course would serve the 49th week, the 2nd course the 50th week, and the 3rd course the 4 days plus three days of the next year. That would mean the 4th course would then serve the first full week of the new year, the 5th course the second week, the 6th course the third week, etc.
Go ahead and get out a pencil and figure this out for yourself, you don't need to go to some website to see what someone else has to say about it, do your own calculations. It is simply not possible for the first course to serve the first week every year without violating the order in which they served.
And to prove that what I'm saying is accurate, according to Mr. Hargis' calculations, when the Temple was destroyed on the 9th Ab, the 19th course of Pethahiah should have been on duty. But according to both the Talmudic tractate Taanith (On Feasting and Fast Days, 29A) and well as Josephus who was an eyewitness to the destruction, (Wars, VI:4, 1, 5) it wasn't the 19th course as Mr. Hargi's calculations would have it but it was in fact the 1st course, that of Jehoirib that was on duty, which proves the 1st course/1st week, 2nd course/2nd week calculations are incorrect. The Jewish year consists of 6 months of 29 days and 6 months of 30 days for a total of 354 days. But 24 courses serving two weeks each would only total 48 weeks, short of filling the year by 2 weeks and 4 days. And then when an extra whole month was added to correct the calendar, it throws off the caculations even further because the priestly courses had to continue their ordering of service even during these extra weeks.
Now, having a fixed date that we know with certainty what course was serving on the 9th Ab of 70 C.E., and if we caculate backwards to the year before Jesus' birth, which is 6 B.C., we find that in fact the priestly course of Abijah was on duty from the 2nd to the 9th of October, the 23rd Elul to the 1st Tishri, or concluding on the feast of Trumpets and the beginning of the New Year.
Now bring forward all your calculations and you'll find Elizabeth's sixth month to fall between the middle of March and the middle of April (since ancient times March 25 has been observed for the annunication to Mary). Then count forward three more months and John would have been born around the middle of June (the ancient date for the feast of John's nativity is June 24). Then count forward another six months and you come to December 25 for the birth of Jesus.

So once again, the actual evidence supports the December dating".

 

[AmyNMoore]

Sorry Amy, but staley IMO, is a confused man.

? whos staley imo?

 

[PaladinValer]

Don't you see the inherent contradiction in what you have said to PaladinValer?

On the one hand, you praise the intention that seeks to "look into" things in greater detail, and then declare that you are not afraid to admit when you are wrong.

Then, seemingly at the same time, because you have not shown that you looked into anything in greater detail, you affirm the exact same thing ("pagan" and "occult" links to holidays), and demand that PaladinValer should accept the fact that you doggedly refuse to refine your thinking on the matter ("agree to disagree").

At this point, the poll itself shows that, for at least those polled, the majority here know the truth and are not afraid to believe and follow it.

All people like you and I can do is to ensure that the next generation is freed from conspiracy theories and outright lies.

Here's God's honest truth:
-The Christian celebration of Christmas Day is based on nothing Pagan.
-The Christian celebration of Easter Day is based on nothing Pagan
-The Christian celebration of All Hallow's Tide is based on nothing Pagan
-KJV-Onlyism is an anti-intellectual conspiracy theorist lie
-Those who persecute Christians who observe Christmas Day, Easter Day, All Hallow's Tide, or use non-KJV Bibles are persecuting Christ Himself (what you did for the least of these...)

I long for the day when history will be elevated to the importance given to mathematics and science.

 

[PaladinValer]

To all read, 'THE PLAN TRUTH ABOUT CHRISTMAS' by Herbert W. Armstrong
search on wikipedia easter christmas. how come it is that the world gets it, that these two holidays are of the world. but it's christians who continualy, think that as long as some is taught in the chruch it's okay. i'm sorry. but this is crazy.
Jim Staley - Truth or Tradition (HD) - Should Christians Celebrate Christmas and Easter? (Full) - YouTube

He's wrong. Armstrongism is not even a Christian group. They reject the Nicene Creed. Posting this sort of theology is not allowed.

 

[Tzaousios]

my agurement i showed verses, i told him one place i got my info. and i also did searches on other sights just can't remember the web address. i have tried to prove my side the best i could. now i think it time to step back. i'm not going to do more harm than good here. so think what you will.

Yes, and he, as well as others, have told you what kind of "info" that is. You still have not addressed the contradiction that I pointed out. People have told you how you have misled yourself, or have been misled, yet you still want to stick to your guns. Why is this?

 

[Radagast]

To all read, 'THE PLAN TRUTH ABOUT CHRISTMAS' by Herbert W. Armstrong

Herbert W. Armstrong was not a Christian. He rejected the Trinity, for example, as PaladinValer says. Is THAT who you follow?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Herbert W. Armstrong was not a Christian. He rejected the Trinity, for example, as PaladinValer says. Is THAT who you follow?

Interestingly, following his death, his followers (Worldwide Church of God) met and did some very serious Bible study with the result being that they rejected his heresies and embraced orthodox Christianity.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by annier Sorry Amy, but staley IMO, is a confused man.

? whos staley imo?

She just forgot to put the comma before "IMO"

[btw, thanks for the 1 blessing ]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7483715/
Basic Grammar for GT, Courtesy of Mel and GCC


.

 

[Habakk]

He's wrong. Armstrongism is not even a Christian group. They reject the Nicene Creed. Posting this sort of theology is not allowed.

Armstrong’s movement/cult is essentially about British Israelism, they believe that the throne of David is now in Britain and that’s where Christ will rule from, on his return.

They used to publish a free magazine called “The Plain Truth, “I don’t know if they still do. On the surface they appear sort of reasonable, but start to dig just a little and some very strange doctrines emerge. For instance they believe that the word British is derived from Hebrew words meaning “covenant man” and that Britain now holds the covenant with God that Israel once held. Saxons is derived from Isaacs’s son, Hebrides from Hebrew settlement and the 10 lost tribes are in Britain and America.

 

[Habakk]

Herbert W. Armstrong was not a Christian. He rejected the Trinity, for example, as PaladinValer says. Is THAT who you follow?

That is true, they do reject the Trinity.

 

[Radagast]

Interestingly, following his death, his followers (Worldwide Church of God) met and did some very serious Bible study with the result being that they rejected his heresies and embraced orthodox Christianity.

That's true. The main group of followers (now Grace Communion International) have rejected Herbert W. Armstrong, accepted the Trinity, and issued a statement saying there's nothing wrong with Christmas.

They also say "After he [Herbert W. Armstrong] died in 1986, church leaders began to realize that many of his doctrines were not biblical. These doctrines were rejected, and the church is now in full agreement with the statement of faith of the National Association of Evangelicals. To reflect these doctrinal changes, in April 2009, the denomination changed its name to Grace Communion International."

In their current form, I welcome them as brothers and sisters in Christ. But people who quote Herbert W. Armstrong should realise that even his followers eventually saw that he was wrong.

They used to publish a free magazine called “The Plain Truth” ... That is true, they do reject the Trinity.

As bbbbbbb said, they have now rejected Armstrongism, accepted the Trinity, and said Christmas is OK.

 

[PaladinValer]

This is just sad, but it also validates what I have always believed: those that actually believe that Christmas Day, etc., are Pagan or derive from Paganism get their information from either anti-intellectualism/conspiracy theories or utter heretical sources.

To the folks who said "no", I ask youto seriously reevaluate your beliefs in light of this and begin to do some real, honest, scholarly research into the real history of the Christian faith. You'll see in the end that we who answered "yes" are not only right but that the claims made by the OP are absolutely outlandish.

 

[Albion]

That's true. The main group of followers (now Grace Communion International) have rejected Herbert W. Armstrong, accepted the Trinity, and issued a statement saying there's nothing wrong with Christmas.

They also say "After he [Herbert W. Armstrong] died in 1986, church leaders began to realize that many of his doctrines were not biblical. These doctrines were rejected, and the church is now in full agreement with the statement of faith of the National Association of Evangelicals. To reflect these doctrinal changes, in April 2009, the denomination changed its name to Grace Communion International."

In their current form, I welcome them as brothers and sisters in Christ. But people who quote Herbert W. Armstrong should realise that even his followers eventually saw that he was wrong.

True, but maybe we should add that many WWCOG members were outraged at the direction taken by the faction that retained the name after HWA's death. They organized a collection of successor churches that are true to the old WWCOG and continue to publish magazines and books and host TV and radio shows just like Armstrong did. Generally speaking, they can be identified by some word that preceeds "Church of God," as with the Living COG, Philadelphia COG, United COG, etc.

 

[Achilles6129]

Reasons that Christmas is irrelevant or evil:

1.

God never commands you to celebrate Christmas in the Scriptures. If he cared so much about it, he would. Therefore, celebrating Christmas pleases God about as much as getting a whopper at Burger King. So God simply does not care about the holiday - it is irrelevant from a theological point of view.

Christmas, whether it was originally pagan or not, is the invention of men, not of God. God does not command it and therefore it is simply irrelevant to him.

2.

There are passages in Scripture that seem to indicate that various customs observed at Christmas are pagan. For example:

"Hear the word which the Lord speaks to you, O house of Israel. 2 Thus says the Lord,
“Do not learn the way of the nations,
And do not be terrified by the signs of the heavens
Although the nations are terrified by them;
3 For the customs of the peoples are [a]delusion;
Because it is wood cut from the forest,
The work of the hands of a craftsman with a cutting tool.
4 “They decorate it with silver and with gold;
They fasten it with nails and with hammers
So that it will not totter.
5 “Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field are they,
And they cannot speak;
They must be carried,
Because they cannot walk!
Do not fear them,
For they can do no harm,
Nor can they do any good.”" Jer. 10:1-5 (NASB)

This is exactly what happens at Christmas - a tree is cut down out of the forest and decked with silver and gold. This is mentioned as a pagan custom in Jeremiah 10.

Another example:

"10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth." Rev. 11:10 (NASB)

At the death of the two witnesses they that dwell upon the earth (i.e., the pagan nations) have what looks quite eerily like a Christmas celebration. They all get together, rejoice, make merry (celebrate) and send gifts to one another - exactly what happens at Christmas. This argues that Christmas is in fact pagan because the peoples of the world celebrate it when the two witnesses die.

Another example:

"9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless [h]elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored [i]over you in vain." Gal. 4:9-11 (NASB)

Paul writes here in the context of Jewish holidays, and notes that the Galatians are observing days/months/seasons/years. He wonders if they desire to be again in bondage. The point that Paul is making is that the celebration of these holidays is irrelevant to God.

That was in the context of Jewish holidays. The same thing would apply to us, in the context of the world's festivals.

3.

There are lies associated with Christmas (and also with Easter). For example, Santa Claus, his reindeer, and his elves, are are all lies (not to mention the Easter bunny as well). The Bible says this about God:

"2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised [b]long ages ago" Titus 1:2 (NASB)

Therefore, Santa Claus, his reindeer, his elves, and the Easter bunny, are not of God, because they are all lies and myths. However, Satan is mentioned as the father of lies in the Scripture, which means that all lies ultimately have their source in Satan:

"44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks [n]a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of [o]lies." Jn. 8:44 (NASB)

Since Santa Claus and the Easter bunny are lies, they cannot possibly be of God. Christ says Satan is the father of lies, so that means that Santa Claus and the Easter bunny are of Satan.

In addition, it is interesting to note that the name "Santa" when the letters are rearranged, in fact spells "Satan." Just take the "n" in Santa and move it to the end.

4.

Christmas has honestly become a holiday that is all about money/merchandise/covetousness for many. Christ says that that which is highly esteemed in the sight of men is an abomination in the sight of God, and he was referring to covetousness:

"14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." Lu. 16:14-15

Christmas has also become about the physicalities/externalities/appearances. God does not care in the slightest about the appearance (man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart). In other words, Christmas has become all about the flesh.

5.

Those who make the argument that Christmas makes people 'more religious' or makes people 'closer to God' don't seem to realize what they are saying. Where are these people the rest of the year? Where is the high rate of church attendance the rest of the year? Isn't this rather showing the high level of hypocrisy - that it takes an international holiday to get you to go to church?

True christianity is not displayed one week out of the year, sorry. If anything, this just shows how in tatters modern christianity really is.

Conclusion

We have seen that celebration of Christmas is not something that is relevant for the Christian today. God does not command it anywhere in Scriptures - in fact it seems that it may even be pagan in nature. Those who do not wish to celebrate Christmas with the rest of the world are committing no offense against God. Christmas is a man-made holiday, not God-made. In short, we have proven that celebration of Christmas today is either irrelevant or evil, theologically speaking.

 

[Tzaousios]

In short, we have proven that celebration of Christmas today is either irrelevant or evil, theologically speaking.

Where has that happened? What I have seen are basically the same assumptions that dollarsbill makes, only with more prooftexts tacked onto them. You even repeated his parallelomania concerning Jeremiah 10 and Christmas trees.

 

[PaladinValer]

God never commands you to celebrate Christmas in the Scriptures. If he cared so much about it, he would. Therefore, celebrating Christmas pleases God about as much as getting a whopper at Burger King. So God simply does not care about the holiday - it is irrelevant from a theological point of view.

Fallacy of Appealing to Ignorance. Non-commanded doesn't mean irrelevance or evil.

Christmas, whether it was originally pagan or not, is the invention of men, not of God. God does not command it and therefore it is simply irrelevant to him.

It is the invention of God because it involves God: the Birth of His Incarnation!

Argument 1 invalidated and debunked. Next!

There are passages in Scripture that seem to indicate that various customs observed at Christmas are pagan. For example:

"Hear the word which the Lord speaks to you, O house of Israel. 2 Thus says the Lord,
“Do not learn the way of the nations,
And do not be terrified by the signs of the heavens
Although the nations are terrified by them;
3 For the customs of the peoples are [a]delusion;
Because it is wood cut from the forest,
The work of the hands of a craftsman with a cutting tool.
4 “They decorate it with silver and with gold;
They fasten it with nails and with hammers
So that it will not totter.
5 “Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field are they,
And they cannot speak;
They must be carried,
Because they cannot walk!
Do not fear them,
For they can do no harm,
Nor can they do any good.”" Jer. 10:1-5 (NASB)

This is exactly what happens at Christmas - a tree is cut down out of the forest and decked with silver and gold. This is mentioned as a pagan custom in Jeremiah 10.

Another example:

"10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth." Rev. 11:10 (NASB)

At the death of the two witnesses they that dwell upon the earth (i.e., the pagan nations) have what looks quite eerily like a Christmas celebration. They all get together, rejoice, make merry (celebrate) and send gifts to one another - exactly what happens at Christmas. This argues that Christmas is in fact pagan because the peoples of the world celebrate it when the two witnesses die.

Another example:

"9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless [h]elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored [i]over you in vain." Gal. 4:9-11 (NASB)

Paul writes here in the context of Jewish holidays, and notes that the Galatians are observing days/months/seasons/years. He wonders if they desire to be again in bondage. The point that Paul is making is that the celebration of these holidays is irrelevant to God.

That was in the context of Jewish holidays. The same thing would apply to us, in the context of the world's festivals.

All false interpretations for reasons given previous.

Argument 2 invalid and debunked. Next!

3.

There are lies associated with Christmas (and also with Easter). For example, Santa Claus, his reindeer, and his elves, are are all lies (not to mention the Easter bunny as well). The Bible says this about God:

"2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised [b]long ages ago" Titus 1:2 (NASB)

Therefore, Santa Claus, his reindeer, his elves, and the Easter bunny, are not of God, because they are all lies and myths. However, Satan is mentioned as the father of lies in the Scripture, which means that all lies ultimately have their source in Satan:

"44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks [n]a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of [o]lies." Jn. 8:44 (NASB)

Since Santa Claus and the Easter bunny are lies, they cannot possibly be of God. Christ says Satan is the father of lies, so that means that Santa Claus and the Easter bunny are of Satan.

In addition, it is interesting to note that the name "Santa" when the letters are rearranged, in fact spells "Satan." Just take the "n" in Santa and move it to the end.

Fallacy of False Equivocation. The Christian practices of both days are different from the secular versions.

Furthermore, the etymology of the word "Santa" has it coming from the Dutch word for Saint, as Santa Claus etymologically is St Nicholas.

Argument 3 invalidated and debunked. Next!

4.

Christmas has honestly become a holiday that is all about money/merchandise/covetousness for many. Christ says that that which is highly esteemed in the sight of men is an abomination in the sight of God, and he was referring to covetousness:

"14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." Lu. 16:14-15

Christmas has also become about the physicalities/externalities/appearances. God does not care in the slightest about the appearance (man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart). In other words, Christmas has become all about the flesh.

See my note above about the Fallacy of False Equivocation.

Argument 4 invalidated and debunked. Next!

5.

Those who make the argument that Christmas makes people 'more religious' or makes people 'closer to God' don't seem to realize what they are saying. Where are these people the rest of the year? Where is the high rate of church attendance the rest of the year? Isn't this rather showing the high level of hypocrisy - that it takes an international holiday to get you to go to church?

True christianity is not displayed one week out of the year, sorry. If anything, this just shows how in tatters modern christianity really is.

Fallacy of Straw Man. You offer an argument that isn't ours' to begin with.

Argument 5 is invalidated and debunked.

Conclusion

Is that, once again, nothing given except bad exegesis, false history, false etymology, and fallacious arguments, including at least one Straw Man.

Therefore, the conclusion is, the nay-sayers are wrong, once again, and are outside the truth and orthodoxy.

Thanks be to God for the truth. It sets we, who are right, they yay-sayers, free from the bondage of anti-intellectualism, conspiracy theory, and bad argumentation. Amen Amen Amen.

 

[Ave Maria]

Yes, we most definitely should. They aren't holy days of obligation for nothing and they also aren't the two holiest days in the Christian year for nothing.