• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Christmas and Sunday Tradition

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟210,609.00
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
We are known (or at least were known) as the people of the Book. As such, we reject the idea of sunday sacredness and the transfer of Sabbath as it has no Biblical reference.

For those that celebrate Dec 25th, what are your reasons for doing so? Are they Bible based or tradition? What is the difference between the tradition of sunday and Dec 25th? Should we keep sunday as well?
 

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟210,609.00
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I find it amazing that in both Adventist forums, no one has commented... let me ask the question a bit different in case there is any ambiguity in my OP.

What is the difference between the tradition of keeping Sunday and the tradition of celebrating Christmas?
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,522
16,853
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟772,070.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I can see a big difference.

The Sabbath or Seventh is a day set down in scripture; and verified by Jesus keeping a Saturday Sabbath, which day of the week actually IS the seventh.

Christmas - the celebration of the anniversary of Our Lord's birth - is not even mentioned anywhere in scripture.

That means celebrating Christmas is an entirely ancient church man-made tradition. So we violate no scripture if we do keep it, or do not keep it, or even celebrate it on the 4th of July. Changing Shabbat to Sunday violates scripture.

There is, however, a celebration that Our Lord Himself took part in; and starts on the 25th of a winter month: Chanukkah. It is the one celebration that is not in Jewish scripture but celebrated by Jews; and IS in the Christian scriptures but not celebrated by Christians. Chanukkah is the aramaic word for "dedication." It starts on the 25th of Kislev and runs for 8 days.

John 10:22 At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem,
23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ubuntu
Upvote 0

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟210,609.00
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I can see a big difference.

That means celebrating Christmas is an entirely ancient church man-made tradition. So we violate no scripture if we do keep it, or do not keep it, or even celebrate it on the 4th of July. Changing Shabbat to Sunday violates scripture.

I would respectfully disagree and ask that you consider these verses...

Ex 32:4-7
And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the Lord. (Christmas)


And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, (Christmas Eve worship service) and brought peace offerings (gifts); and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.


And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

Was this not God's people using pagan symbolism to worship Him? Was God pleased with it?

Jer 10:1-4
Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

I know the passage here is not referencing Christmas trees primarily but the principle is clear.

Col 2:8

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Do you really think God is impartial when it comes to the celebration of a pagan festival clothed in Christian clothing?

How does God see this celebration that leads some to covetousness, jealousy, despair and strife? Are these not the machinations of Satan?

If Dec. 25th will not be celebrated in Heaven or on the new earth, what business do Christians have in wasting time and resources on it here?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,522
16,853
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟772,070.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I would submit that if someone thinks they are celebrating saturnalia or wood nymphs or some other pagan thing by observing Christmas on Dec 25th, then by all means do not do it. I cannot see honest believers of any denomination doing that. So to me that celebration comes under Paul's allowance doctrine:

Romans 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—

IOW - it does not matter much one way or the other.
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,522
16,853
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟772,070.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the Lord. (Christmas)

Um - you do know that this happened in late spring or early summer, right? It has nothing to do with christmas?


BTW - when DO you celebrate HIS birth? I put it in with Sukkot celebrations. That WILL be celebrated in the New Earth. Zechariah 14.
 
Upvote 0

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟210,609.00
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Um - you do know that this happened in late spring or early summer, right? It has nothing to do with christmas?


BTW - when DO you celebrate HIS birth? I put it in with Sukkot celebrations. That WILL be celebrated in the New Earth. Zechariah 14.
I was drawing a parallel between the two... sorry, I thought it was apparent.
 
Upvote 0

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟210,609.00
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I would submit that if someone thinks they are celebrating saturnalia or wood nymphs or some other pagan thing by observing Christmas on Dec 25th, then by all means do not do it. I cannot see honest believers of any denomination doing that. So to me that celebration comes under Paul's allowance doctrine:

Romans 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—

IOW - it does not matter much one way or the other.
These passages don't condone doing whatever one wishes. We don't need to be worried about being judged according to man but we should be concerned with what God thinks.
 
Upvote 0

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟210,609.00
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
BTW - when DO you celebrate HIS birth? I put it in with Sukkot celebrations. That WILL be celebrated in the New Earth. Zechariah 14.

I thank God for sending His Son throughout the year... not everyday but I probably should.

The Lord is not interested in our worship through feasts, holidays or celebrations... He wants our hearts. If we don't have a personal, intimate relationship with Him now, He will say to us, 'depart from me, I never knew you'... regardless of how well we kept the feasts, ceremonies etc.
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,522
16,853
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟772,070.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I was drawing a parallel between the two... sorry, I thought it was apparent.
I did get that, but IMO it is a very weak parallel; one I do not think is valid.

And you did not answer the question about when YOU celebrate HIS birth.

These passages don't condone doing whatever one wishes. We don't need to be worried about being judged according to man but we should be concerned with what God thinks.
Not what ever one wishes as in idol worship. The presupposition here is that what is being done in all those celebrations have a heart toward worshiping the LORD.

IF that is where the heart is, those verses tell me God accepts it as valid. One verse earlier in Romans:

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,522
16,853
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟772,070.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The Lord is not interested in our worship through feasts, holidays or celebrations... He wants our hearts. If we don't have a personal, intimate relationship with Him now, He will say to us, 'depart from me, I never knew you'... regardless of how well we kept the feasts, ceremonies etc.
In one sense that is true.

But in another sense, if HE says to celebrate HIM on particular days and seasons, and we DON'T; what does that say about where our hearts are at?

Mark 7:6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me.
 
Upvote 0

Ubuntu

wayfaring stranger
Mar 7, 2012
1,046
524
✟48,907.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
@EastCoastRemnant:

You should check out the writings of Ellen White about Christmas.

On one hand she clearly denounces "feasting" and "gluttony", yet on the other hand she is quite pragmatic when it comes to Christmas. She spoke about putting Christmas trees in our Churches, and she said that for our children's sake we shouldn't ignore the day:

"As the twenty-fifth of December is observed to commemorate the birth of Christ, as the children have been instructed by precept and example that this was indeed a day of gladness and rejoicing, you will find it a difficult matter to pass over this period without giving it some attention. It can be made to serve a very good purpose."

She also spoke about giving Christian books as Christmas gifts, so Ellen White did clearly not recommend that we abolish all kinds of cultural traditions:

"The holiday season is fast approaching with its interchange of gifts, and old and young are intently studying what they can bestow upon their friends as a token of affectionate remembrance. It is pleasant to receive a gift, however small, from those we love. It is an assurance that we are not forgotten, and seems to bind us to them a little closer."

The White Estate has published a collection of quotes from Ellen White regarding Christmas, you should check it out: http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/Christmas.html
 
Upvote 0

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟210,609.00
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Thanx Ubuntu, I am aware of sister Whites opinion on the subject. We do know that she wasn't given light regarding all issues... I don't think the holidays today are in any way the same as in her day.

I am not saying that my conviction on this will be held by everyone, I am just presenting it as 'food for thought' for those that may be wondering/questioning the purpose and necessity of the celebration.
 
Upvote 0

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟210,609.00
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I believe she did Dave although it may have come from another pioneer Adventist theologian... not sure. The type is fairly easy to understand that God came to 'tabernacle' with us through His Son, thus fulfilling another of the antitypical feasts.
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,522
16,853
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟772,070.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Since running thru the numbers from Priest Zechariah's seeing the angel in the temple and being struck mute to Mary visiting him and her cousin Elizabeth when she was 6 months along, we can figure out roughly when HE was born and it comes out quite close to the Feast of Tabernacles.

Besides, Rome had a way of doing their census/taxes at times of local feasts when the population were all together. So Tabernacles would fit right in with that.
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
5,088
2,548
76
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟608,628.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
The Reason for Choosing December 25

Although the date of Christ’s birth is not given to us in Scripture, there is documented evidence that December 25 was already of some significance to Christians prior to A.D. 354. One example can be found in the writings of Hyppolytus of Rome, who explains in hisCommentary on the book of Daniel (c. A.D. 204) that the Lord’s birth was believed to have occurred on that day:

For the first advent of our Lord in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, but from Adam, five thousand and five hundred years. He suffered in the thirty-third year, March 25th, Friday, the eighteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, while Rufus and Roubellion were Consuls.

The reference to Adam can be understood in light of another of Hyppolytus’ writings, the Chronicon, where he explains that Jesus was born nine months after the anniversary of Creation. According to his calculations, the world was created on the vernal equinox, March 25, which would mean Jesus was born nine months later, on December 25.

Nineteenth-century liturgical scholar Louis Duchesne explains that “towards the end of the third century the custom of celebrating the birthday of Christ had spread throughout the whole Church, but that it was not observed everywhere on the same day” (Christian Worship, Its Origin and Evolution: a study of the Latin liturgy up to the time of Charlemagne, p. 260).

In the West, the birth of Christ was celebrated on December 25, and in the East on January 6.

Duchesne writes “one is inclined to believe that the Roman Church made choice of the 25th of December in order to enter into rivalry with Mithraism. This reason, however, leaves unexplained the choice of the 6th of January” (ibid., p. 261). His solution, therefore, was that the date of Christ’s birth was decided by using as a starting point the same day on which he was believed to have died. This would explain the discrepancies between the celebrations in the East and West.

Given the great aversion on the part of some Christians to anything pagan, the logical conclusion here is that one celebration has nothing to do with the other. In his book, Spirit of the Liturgy, Pope Benedict XVI explains:

The claim used to be made that December 25 developed in opposition to the Mithras myth, or as a Christian response to the cult of the unconquered sun promoted by Roman emperors in the third century in their efforts to establish a new imperial religion. However, these old theories can no longer be sustained. The decisive factor was the connection of creation and Cross, of creation and Christ’s conception (p. 105-107).

While these explanations of how December 25 came to be the date of Christmas are all plausible, we know one thing for sure: The evidence that this day held a special significance to Christians predates the proof of a supposed celebration of Sol Invictus or other pagan deities on that day.

That the Christians chose a date so close to the winter solstice is also not proof that this was done to mimic pagan festivals. The various pagan religions all had festivals spanning the calendar. Whatever month the early Christians might have otherwise chosen would still place Christmas near some pagan celebration, and oppositional theorists would still be making the same claims.

The solstice was important to everyone for agricultural reasons in the same way water is important to the survival of human beings, and so we see rituals involving water showing up in various religions. That doesn't prove that one borrowed the idea or theme from another.
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
5,088
2,548
76
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟608,628.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Now we move on to establishing the birthday of Christ from Sacred Scripture in two steps. The first step is to use Scripture to determine the birthday of Saint John the Baptist. The next step is using Saint John the Baptist’s birthday as the key for finding Christ’s birthday. We can discover that Christ was born in late December by observing first the time of year in which Saint Luke describes Saint Zacharias in the temple. This provides us with the approximate conception date of Saint John the Baptist. From there we can follow the chronology that Saint Luke gives, and that lands us at the end of December.
Saint Luke reports that Zacharias served in the “course of Abias” (Lk 1:5) which Scripture records as the eighth course among the twenty-four priestly courses (Neh 12:17). Each shift of priests served one week in the temple for two times each year. The course of Abias served during the eighth week and the thirty-second week in the annual cycle.However, when did the cycle of courses begin?

Josef Heinrich Friedlieb has convincingly established that the first priestly course of Jojarib was on duty during the destruction of Jerusalem on the ninth day of the Jewish month of Av.Thus the priestly course of Jojarib was on duty during the second week of Av. Consequently, the priestly course of Abias (the course of Saint Zacharias) was undoubtedly serving during the second week of the Jewish month of Tishri—the very week of the Day of Atonement on the tenth day of Tishri. In our calendar, the Day of Atonement would land anywhere from September 22 to October 8.

Zacharias and Elizabeth conceived John the Baptist immediately after Zacharias served his course. This entails that Saint John the Baptist would have been conceived somewhere around the end of September, placing John’s birth at the end of June, confirming the Catholic Church’s celebration of the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist on June 24.

The second-century Protoevangelium of Saint James also confirms a late September conception of the Baptist since the work depicts Saint Zacharias as High Priest and as entering the Holy of Holies—not merely the holy place with the altar of incense. This is a factual mistake because Zacharias was not the high priest, but one of the chief priests. Still, the Protoevangelium regards Zacharias as a high priest and this associates him with the Day of Atonement, which lands on the tenth day of the Hebrew month of Tishri (roughly the end of our September). Immediately after this entry into the temple and message of the Archangel Gabriel, Zacharias and Elizabeth conceive John the Baptist. Allowing for forty weeks of gestation, this places the birth of John the Baptist at the end of June—once again confirming the Catholic date for the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist on June 24.

The rest of the dating is rather simple. We read that just after the Immaculate Virgin Mary conceived Christ, she went to visit her cousin Elizabeth who was six months pregnant with John the Baptist. This means that John the Baptist was six months older that our Lord Jesus Christ (Lk 1:24-27, 36). If you add six months to June 24 you get December 24-25 as the birthday of Christ. Then, if you subtract nine months from December 25 you get that the Annunciation was March 25. All the dates match up perfectly. So then, if John the Baptist was conceived shortly after the Jewish Day of the Atonement, then the traditional Catholic dates are essentially correct. The birth of Christ would be about or on December 25.

Sacred Tradition also confirms December 25 as the birthday of the Son of God. The source of this ancient tradition is the Blessed Virgin Mary herself. Ask any mother about the birth of her children. She will not only give you the date of the birth, but she will be able to rattle off the time, the location, the weather, the weight of the baby, the length of the baby, and a number of other details. I’m the father of six blessed children, and while I sometimes forget these details—mea maxima culpa—my wife never does. You see, mothers never forget the details surrounding the births of their babies.

Now ask yourself: Would the Blessed Virgin Mary ever forget the birth of her Son Jesus Christ who was conceived without human seed, proclaimed by angels, born in a miraculous way, and visited by Magi? She knew from the moment of His incarnation in her stainless womb that He was the Son of God and Messiah. Would she ever forget that day?

Next, ask yourself: Would the Apostles be interested in hearing Mary tell the story? Of course they would. Do you think the holy Apostle who wrote, “And the Word was made flesh,” was not interested in the minute details of His birth? Even when I walk around with our seven-month-old son, people always ask “How old is he?” or “When was he born?” Don’t you think people asked this question of Mary?

So the exact birth date (December 25) and the time (midnight) would have been known in the first century. Moreover, the Apostles would have asked about it and would have, no doubt, commemorated the blessed event that both Saint Matthew and Saint Luke chronicle for us. In summary, it is completely reasonable to state that the early Christians both knew and commemorated the birth of Christ. Their source would have been His Immaculate Mother.

Further testimony reveals that the Church Fathers claimed December 25 as the Birthday of Christ prior to the conversion of Constantine and the Roman Empire. The earliest record of this is that Pope Saint Telesphorus (reigned A.D. 126-137) instituted the tradition of Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve. Although the Liber Pontificalis does not give us the date of Christmas, it assumes that the Pope was already celebrating Christmas and that a Mass at midnight was added. During this time, we also read the following words of Theophilus (A.D. 115-181), Catholic bishop of Caesarea in Palestine: “We ought to celebrate the birthday of Our Lord on what day soever the 25th of December shall happen.”
 
Upvote 0