Christians: The Problem with the World?

[GosDontez]

In the immortal words of James, the brother of Christ, Jesus...

"My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires." (James 1:19-20 NIV)

With such an emotionally charged statement in question form, I like to use the aforementioned preface.

I came across this topic due to trying to find out what love is from Christians. As usual, the answers were all over the place, to which I simply thought, "why not just go to the source for your answer, the Word of God, Christ, Jesus himself?"

I mean, there's a list of 14 characteristics in 1 Corinthians 13. But considering the sheer number of denominations Christianity has, should I have been surprised as to the sheer number of different answers I received?

If love is Christ's greatest commandment, then shouldn't Christians all give the same answer as to what it is? Yeah....that didn't happen.

The frustration from this (and other Christian-based problem causes) led to this post.

I will give the first response to this post's question, then wait....

Is the problem with the world, Christians?

Me (Gos Dontez): Yes!!! Emphatically!

Why? 3 Main Reasons:

1. We are CONFESSED sinners.

2. According to statistics, there are more of us, thus, more sins being committed.

3. And this is worst of all. We misuse and abuse God's grace to keep sinning.

Now, provided that anyone even dares or cares to read this post...

Prove me wrong.

 

[mozo41]

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

[miamited]

Hi gosdontez,

One of the general practices of false religions is that they contain some kernels of truth, but somewhere along the way they leave the truth and head into the dangerous territory of falsehood. Then, because they can 'prove' the kernels of truth are honored and exist within their religion, they then ask you to believe it all.

You posted:

Why? 3 Main Reasons:

1. We are CONFESSED sinners.

2. According to statistics, there are more of us, thus, more sins being committed.

3. And this is worst of all. We misuse and abuse God's grace to keep sinning.

While I would most certainly agree that point 1 and 2 are true, although I'm not in agreement that just a larger population is the complete answer to 2, 3 is a generalization for which you will need more explanation before I can agree with it, or prove its truth.

The Scriptures do touch on each and every point of your premise, and do support the basic understanding of your premise. So why you would expect a group of people who hold the Scriptures up as true, would be willing or able to prove something wrong that pretty basically agrees with the Scriptures, rather confuses me.

However, as to my disagreements with the points of your premise:

I have none with point 1. Each and every one of us is a sinner and hopefully anyone bearing the name of christian is a confessed sinner. However, there is at least one person that comes immediately to mind that holds themselves up as a 'christian' that seems to have made it fairly clear that they have never had any sin to confess.

Point 2 is not complete. Yes there is more sin because there are more people, but there is also more sin because we have become more and more sinful in our individual practices of sin. I believe that Paul's writing in the first chapter of his letter to the Roman believers would infer that even if the population of the creation were to remain static, sin would increase.

Take as an example, gambling. There was a time that gambling was frowned upon by law and government. Today most states themselves run a fairly good gambling operation. So, even without any increase in population, when people's acceptance of sin is made greater or encouraged by more people, then sin will increase. Sexual sin is another good example. At one time, a man or woman having an affair was considered one of the worst stigmas a person could carry. Today, it's more..."ehhh, look practically everyone cheats at some time in their marriage. Don't beat yourself up over it." So, because of its more general acceptance as a normal practice, even without any increase in population, sexual sin grows.

Point 3 is also incomplete. Yes, some people sin in spite of God's grace and then depend on God's grace to forgive them their sin. But again, this is clearly what the Scriptures teach and so I'm a bit flummoxed as to why you would post a challenge on a christian site for christians to disprove the truth of God. However, that isn't the only reason that we sin. The basic reason that most believers sin is that they are sinners. Many of the new covenant writers give us instruction that clearly implies that believers can still sin. This is why we are encouraged to live by the Spirit and not by the flesh. To put away the desires of the flesh. But, I think the Scriptures are also clear that this is not just something that happens overnight. It is a continuing process of sanctification.

Someone comes to believe the truth of God and trust in Him and establish His ways as their ways. Well that person doesn't just completely change overnight. There are still ongoing struggles with the desires of their flesh and while they know to do the right thing, their flesh fights against them to do the right thing. They fall to some sin. However, they now know to get back up and go before their God and seek His forgiveness and strength, but then somewhere down the road, in their continuing struggle with the desires of their flesh, they fall again.

Now this person isn't sinning 'because' of their faith in God's grace. He is sinning because he is a sinner and still being sanctified and purified as silver in the fire. He is sinning because he is still being tempted by the desires of his flesh. But, because of his now new knowledge of God's grace, he has the confidence and faithful belief that if he goes before his God and declares his sin and seeks God's forgiveness, that God is faithful and just to forgive his sin.

It's all in the Scriptures, but it's nice to see that you're getting it.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[GosDontez]

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Which is basically saying, "all is good....even the bad."

Or did I miss something?

 

[GosDontez]

Hi gosdontez,

One of the general practices of false religions is that they contain some kernels of truth, but somewhere along the way they leave the truth and head into the dangerous territory of falsehood. Then, because they can 'prove' the kernels of truth are honored and exist within their religion, they then ask you to believe it all.

You posted:


While I would most certainly agree that point 1 and 2 are true, although I'm not in agreement that just a larger population is the complete answer to 2, 3 is a generalization for which you will need more explanation before I can agree with it, or prove its truth.

The Scriptures do touch on each and every point of your premise, and do support the basic understanding of your premise. So why you would expect a group of people who hold the Scriptures up as true, would be willing or able to prove something wrong that pretty basically agrees with the Scriptures, rather confuses me.

However, as to my disagreements with the points of your premise:

I have none with point 1. Each and every one of us is a sinner and hopefully anyone bearing the name of christian is a confessed sinner. However, there is at least one person that comes immediately to mind that holds themselves up as a 'christian' that seems to have made it fairly clear that they have never had any sin to confess.

Point 2 is not complete. Yes there is more sin because there are more people, but there is also more sin because we have become more and more sinful in our individual practices of sin. I believe that Paul's writing in the first chapter of his letter to the Roman believers would infer that even if the population of the creation were to remain static, sin would increase.

Take as an example, gambling. There was a time that gambling was frowned upon by law and government. Today most states themselves run a fairly good gambling operation. So, even without any increase in population, when people's acceptance of sin is made greater or encouraged by more people, then sin will increase. Sexual sin is another good example. At one time, a man or woman having an affair was considered one of the worst stigmas a person could carry. Today, it's more..."ehhh, look practically everyone cheats at some time in their marriage. Don't beat yourself up over it." So, because of its more general acceptance as a normal practice, even without any increase in population, sexual sin grows.

Point 3 is also incomplete. Yes, some people sin in spite of God's grace and then depend on God's grace to forgive them their sin. But again, this is clearly what the Scriptures teach and so I'm a bit flummoxed as to why you would post a challenge on a christian site for christians to disprove the truth of God. However, that isn't the only reason that we sin. The basic reason that most believers sin is that they are sinners. Many of the new covenant writers give us instruction that clearly implies that believers can still sin. This is why we are encouraged to live by the Spirit and not by the flesh. To put away the desires of the flesh. But, I think the Scriptures are also clear that this is not just something that happens overnight. It is a continuing process of sanctification.

Someone comes to believe the truth of God and trust in Him and establish His ways as their ways. Well that person doesn't just completely change overnight. There are still ongoing struggles with the desires of their flesh and while they know to do the right thing, their flesh fights against them to do the right thing. They fall to some sin. However, they now know to get back up and go before their God and seek His forgiveness and strength, but then somewhere down the road, in their continuing struggle with the desires of their flesh, they fall again.

Now this person isn't sinning 'because' of their faith in God's grace. He is sinning because he is a sinner and still being sanctified and purified as silver in the fire. He is sinning because he is still being tempted by the desires of his flesh. But, because of his now new knowledge of God's grace, he has the confidence and faithful belief that if he goes before his God and declares his sin and seeks God's forgiveness, that God is faithful and just to forgive his sin.

It's all in the Scriptures, but it's nice to see that you're getting it.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

"Brevity is the soul of wit." - William Shakespeare -

You said too much. I see contradictions in your post. Which is what happens when we say too much.

Nevertheless....I'll bite. However, time is precious, of the highest value (next to a soul), and in my case extremely limited. So this will definitely take time.

For now, let's start with 'sin". That is, of course, if you wish to continue.

What say you?

 

[miamited]

"Brevity is the soul of wit." - William Shakespeare -

You said too much. I see contradictions in your post. Which is what happens when we say too much.

Nevertheless....I'll bite. However, time is precious, of the highest value (next to a soul), and in my case extremely limited. So this will definitely take time.

For now, let's start with 'sin". That is, of course, if you wish to continue.

What say you?

Hi gosdontez,

Thanks for the rebuke. What did you want to discuss about 'sin'? You did spell it correctly if that's what you're wanting to know.

Or, if you're asking for a definition, I can offer you this: an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[GosDontez]

Hi gosdontez,

Thanks for the rebuke. What did you want to discuss about 'sin'? You did spell it correctly if that's what you're wanting to know.

Or, if you're asking for a definition, I can offer you this: an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

Hey Ted.

We are in agreement on the definition of sin you gave. My default position, now, is to go to the dictionary for word defiinitions....ALL of them.

Unfortunately, I have learned that many words have multiple definitions. Even more disturbing, some have definitions that contradict.

So, would you agree that a command is a law? In reference to transgressing.

 

[miamited]

Hi gosdontez,

You asked of me:

So, would you agree that a command is a law? In reference to transgressing.

You'll have to be just a bit more clear with me. I can certainly envision many situations where a command would not be considered a law. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by adding the parameter -- in reference to transgressing.

I can command my wife to shut up when she's yelling at me, but I wouldn't count that as a law.

Could you give a couple of the examples that you've come across where a word has contradicting definitions?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[GosDontez]

Hi gosdontez,

You asked of me:


You'll have to be just a bit more clear with me. I can certainly envision many situations where a command would not be considered a law. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by adding the parameter -- in reference to transgressing.

I can command my wife to shut up when she's yelling at me, but I wouldn't count that as a law.

Could you give a couple of the examples that you've come across where a word has contradicting definitions?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

Ok...I assume your command to your wife would be due to the suffering her yelling is causing.

If so, if she didn't stop yelling at you, even after your command, would you consider that disobeying of your command a transgression?

And what about the vice versa? If she gave you a command.....

(See where I'm going....?)

 

[miamited]

Hi gosdontez,

Well, where we are having our difficulty is your use of the term 'law'.

However, my wife is yelling at me because I didn't take the trash out that she commanded me to the day before. Does everyone just get to make new laws all the time that have greater power than the law before. She establishes a law for me to take the trash out and I establish a law for her to shut up. Now, if I still don't take the trash out and she still doesn't shut up about it, then we're both law breakers, right?

God bless you.
In Christ, ted

 

[GosDontez]

Hi gosdontez,

Well, where we are having our difficulty is your use of the term 'law'.

However, my wife is yelling at me because I didn't take the trash out that she commanded me to the day before. Does everyone just get to make new laws all the time that have greater power than the law before. She establishes a law for me to take the trash out and I establish a law for her to shut up. Now, if I still don't take the trash out and she still doesn't shut up about it, then we're both law breakers, right?

God bless you.
In Christ, ted

If "you" don't obey any given command, then isn't that disobedience?

(Did yoiu know that ther are over 25 definition for 'law' at Dictionary.com?)

 

[miamited]

If "you" don't obey any given command, then isn't that disobedience?

(Did yoiu know that ther are over 25 definition for 'law' at Dictionary.com?)

Hi gosdontez,

Generally speaking if one doesn't obey a 'lawful' command it is disobedience against the entity that gave the command. There are examples where disobeying a command is apparently not considered disobedience by God and, of course, often times keeping the command of one entity can put you at risk of disobeying the command of another.

In the book of Daniel, King Nebuchadnezzar issued a lawful command that at the sound of all the instruments mentioned that everyone had to bow down to his statue. It would seem that neither Daniel or God considered that to be a lawful command because it directly contradicted God's command. At one point the apostles were issued a lawful command to stop preaching about Jesus. Their response was that they were beholden to the command of God over the command of men.

So, there are examples that disobedience to a command is not a bad thing. However, i would add that one must be very careful in making such a choice. There are many nations that have within their governance what most would consider unlawful commands. Nazi Germany existed on unlawful commands. That neighbors were to turn in one another. The Scriptures say to live at peace with your neighbor who lives at peace with you. That on one particular night, soldiers were commanded to go throughout the Jewish sector and destroy their businesses. Prison and death camps were established by command of men to work and murder other men unrighteously. So, if one disobeys a lawful command of men, but in so doing, keeps the command of God, yes, they are being disobedient to the entity that made the unrighteous command, but keeping the righteous command of God.

That isn't a bad thing.

However, I think we're getting a bit off track with your OP question. That was whether or not we sin because of God's grace.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[SkyWriting]

Now, provided that anyone even dares or cares to read this post...
Prove me wrong.

Sin only comes from the Law.
And only as much as you
understand the law, at that.

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man,
and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all
men, because all sinned. 13For sin was in the world before
the Law was given;

but sin is not taken into account when there is no law.